The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting this afternoon. The first item will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question this afternoon is from Darren Millar.

Safety on Rural Roads

Darren Millar AC: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve safety on rural roads? OQ59995

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. We will consult on the new road safety strategy for Wales, beginning in November of this year. Updated guidance on setting local speed limits, including factors particularly relevant to rural roads, will follow in 2024.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. You'll be aware that road safety data from 2022 suggests that the vast majority of serious and fatal accidents do occur on rural roads, and that many of those roads are being disproportionately over-represented when compared to the volumes of traffic on them. In the rural parts of Denbighshire that I represent, there are three areas on the A494 trunk road that do need some urgent attention, and, of course, the trunk road network is the responsibility of the Welsh Government. I've raised on numerous occasions the need for speed reduction and a crossing for pedestrians in the village of Pwll-glas, in order for residents and children to be able to access the facilities that are there safely. And there are two other projects on the A494—the Maes Gamedd junction in Gwyddelwern, and Lôn Fawr in Ruthin—which also urgently need some attention via some re-engineering in order to make them safe. First Minister, will you join me on a visit to rural Denbighshire to see these particular locations for yourself, so that we can work together to address these road safety issues in my constituency?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Darren Millar for those questions. He makes important points about safety on rural roads and the Welsh Government's responsibility for the trunk road network. I have followed his pursuit of the Pwll-glas issue here on the floor of the Senedd, and I was here on the floor last week to hear Llyr Gruffydd's points on that issue as well. And I know that the Deputy Minister has himself visited that site and said some encouraging things in reply to a recent question from the Member.
I'm not familiar with one of the three issues that Darren Millar mentioned, Llywydd. I have heard of the Lôn Fawr/Corwen Road junction in Ruthin, and I know that there are plans that the Welsh Government has to deal with speed issues at that junction and to look for small-scale measures that can be implemented at the junction to improve road safety.
I thank the Member for the invitation to join him, and, no doubt, others with an interest in these matters, and, subject to the usual diary constraints, I'd be happy to do that.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Darren Millar, for asking that question. Coincidentally, I want to talk about the A494 too, but another part of that road. We're talking now about Dolgellau through to Glan-yr-afon. That stretch of the road, like the rest of the A494, is very dangerous. We're seeing increasing numbers of accidents, deaths indeed, and very serious accidents with people having to go to Stoke, to the hospital there. And I raised the point about safety on this road with the Deputy Minister two years ago, and, at that time, the Deputy Minister said that an improvement programme to safeguard that road would take place this year. But in a response I had from the Deputy Minister in August, he said that that programme has now been postponed for two years. So, that means that, over the next two years, I can assure you, whilst this road safety programme is postponed, there will be accidents, some of those fatal, on that stretch of road during the next two years of postponement. So, can we have an assurance that you will look at the A494 seriously and make it a priority, and that we will see work taking place on that road to prevent accidents there? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, of course, we do take the situation on that road in Dolgellau seriously, but we do that also with other roads across Wales. There are a number of villages who want to see improvements made to their road safety. We do have a programme in place. There are many applications coming in to that programme, and, as the Deputy Minister has explained, the work that we do is to prioritise those issues and to do our very best to respond to the stronger cases presented to us.

Support for Cancer Patients

Natasha Asghar AS: 2. What is the Welsh Government doing to support cancer patients? OQ60008

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, huge efforts have been made in recent years to improve early referral of people with symptoms to cancer services. The record number of patients informed each month of the outcome of that referral is encouraging evidence of success.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you for your response, First Minister. I recently met with Young Lives vs Cancer to find out more about the work that they do. They explained that children and young people with cancer, and their families, often have to travel great lengths to attend specialist care. On average, families in Wales are forced to travel 534 miles a month, and spend nearly £300 a month to receive treatment. First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that nobody with cancer should be forced to travel hundreds of mile, nor spend hundreds of pounds just to receive vital treatment. Many families, as a consequence, are having to cut back on essentials, such as food, in a bid to meet the costs of getting treatment. This is just unacceptable. But one way to combat this issue is to set up a young cancer patient travel fund, which will meet the costs of travelling for treatment. The sum of money needed in setting up a fund like this in Wales is around about £500,000. I'm sure you'll agree, First Minister, that £500,000 is minimal when compared to the vast amount of cash the Welsh Government is spending, perhaps, on other projects. So, First Minister, will you commit to looking into creating a fund to support children with cancer, and their families, who are going through the unthinkable right now? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I understand that travelling to and from appointments for cancer treatment places a burden on families, particularly where, in order to get the best specialist treatment that is available, that has to be some distance from people's homes. Our figures show that there are around 113 new diagnoses of cancer every year amongst people aged under 25. Now, the Welsh Government already has, through the NHS, a travel cost reimbursement scheme. You have to meet the qualifying criteria for it at all, but the scheme does exist. And the Welsh ambulance service provides non-emergency patient transport services for people attending oncology appointments. What the Minister has asked the Welsh ambulance service to do is to look at the number of non-emergency patient journeys that it is delivering for children and young people who are accessing cancer care, and that will give us better information to continue to explore some of the issues that the campaigners raise and which the Member has highlighted this afternoon.

Buffy Williams AS: First Minister, last month, along with other Members, I visited the brand-new Snowdrop Breast Centre, just around the corner from the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. The £2 million state-of-the-art facility, partnership funded by Welsh Government and the local health board, will make a huge difference to residents suffering with breast cancer, with referrals being made straight from GPs. From correspondence with the health Minister, I understand that another diagnostic and treatment hub is due to open very near to the Snowdrop centre site in 2025. The ambition is to get the facility open sooner, to begin construction works in 2024 and to provide temporary diagnostic capacity at the site by April 2024. Will the First Minister please provide an update on these timescales and what support the Welsh Government can provide to support the health board's ambition of opening the hub sooner? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Buffy Williams for that, Llywydd, and thank her for what she said about her visit, with others, to the Snowdrop centre. The site adjacent that she refers to is the site purchased by Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, with help from the Welsh Government. This has happened in the context of how long it normally takes to develop health service facilities very rapidly, because it was only in June 2022 that the health board were approached by Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council with the idea of purchasing the building—the building previously used by British Airways—and purchase of the site occurred in early 2023. The current occupants of the site are due to vacate it about now, and that means that early work will be possible on a temporary facility, available for a diagnostic service on the site, we hope, by spring 2024. The formal start of construction will happen in 2025, but, as Buffy Williams has said, Llywydd, all parties are working together to see whether this date can be brought forward and whether there can be some temporary use for diagnostic purposes at that site in the meantime. And it will undoubtedly, as the Member has said, add to the services available to patients in her constituency and those nearby.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Most of us will have attended a Macmililan coffee morning over the past few days, so we should start by thanking Macmillan for their work. On a personal level, I'm grateful for what they did to help members of my own family. But, the best way of supporting cancer patients is to secure early diagnosis. And one of the most stubborn cancers is lung cancer. It is possible to identify lung cancer through a screening programme, but there is no targeted screening programme here in Wales. So, when can we look forward to seeing such a screening programme for lung cancer in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree, of course, with what the Member said about the importance of screening services, and we have a number of programmes in Wales that do excellent work. We depend on the advice that we receive to consider whether there is more that we can do. I can ask the Minister to write to you about the latest situation in terms of what the advice coming from the committee on the UK level is and how we can do more in this area.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week, the school absence figures came out and, since COVID, there has been a massive rise in the number of pupils who are marked, regrettably, as persistently absent from school in the secondary sector. In the normal categorisation, it's up to 16 per cent of all students who are classed as persistently absent from school; for those on free school lunches, it's up to 36 per cent. A day lost from school is a day of lost opportunity. There are sometimes very good reasons why students need to be away from school, but those numbers obviously highlight a significant problem within our secondary sector. What action is the Welsh Government taking to address that, support teachers and support local authorities to bring those numbers back into the normal frame that we would traditionally expect, because, as I said, a day out of school is a day of lost opportunity?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the leader of the opposition for that question. He's right to point to this post-COVID phenomenon, where, right across the United Kingdom, but, indeed, far wider than that, globally, there is this phenomenon of young people not presenting themselves back in education in the numbers that were there before the pandemic began. The Welsh Government is taking a series of measures to address that. We have invested £6.5 million in family engagement officers, because one of the best ways of trying to erode that number is to make sure that we have those conversations with families and do everything we can to make them part of the solution to this problem. We are investing £2.5 million additionally in the education welfare service to follow up on those cases where there is persistent absence and absence where we believe the reasons behind it do not stand up to sensible examination.
In order to support all of that and to address the new circumstances, the Minister has established a national attendance taskforce. That goes well beyond education itself. It includes representatives from health services, social services, the police and a range of community-based organisations, and it will draw on the direct experience of parents and learners themselves, and, in that way, to mobilise the help of all those who can play a part in, as the leader of the opposition said, recovering the position that was previously standard to be seen here in Wales.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Looking at this issue, First Minister, one of the things that surprised me was that there is no mental health absence code. This means that if students are off for mental health issues they are marked as absent in the traditional sense of showing on the school statistics as not having pupils in class. That, to me, does seem to be an anomaly in the system, and such a code could offer direct advice to school about how to support students, because we know that the mental health of young students has suffered because of COVID. Will you commit today to looking at that proposal and, if it hasn't already been referred, refer it to the taskforce for consideration, so that that guidance can support schools in, ultimately, dealing with this issue of not penalising people who are suffering with their mental health but, actually, supporting them?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, can I, in general, just support the point that the Member has made? My approach to school attendance and the approach of the Government is always to look for ways in which we can help people to get back into school, not a penalising approach, in the first instance. However, any absence from school is recorded as an absence. Whether that is because of a physical illness or because of a mental health condition, it still needs to be recorded. However, the idea that the Member has suggested this afternoon is clearly worth examining. Codes have already been issued to schools in the way in which they can best respond to young people whose mental well-being is a barrier to them being in school. But I'm sure the Minister is very happy to look at that idea and to refer it to the taskforce for their consideration as well.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Would you agree with me, First Minister, that fines ultimately should be the last resort when actually sanctioning against absence? They need to be there, because obviously some people do play the system, but here we have a problem that is a long tail from the COVID crisis that we've just gone through. It's pleasing to hear that the taskforce has been put in place and I'm grateful for your indicating that the Government might well consider the proposal about a mental health absence code. Can you give an indication of the work of the taskforce and, in particular, the timeline of delivery for any recommendations that it might come up with? Because headteachers and those in the school profession indicate that this is a real issue that, regrettably, is growing in our schools, not declining, and that support is desperately required.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, first of all, Llywydd, to say that I agree with the point the leader of the opposition has made, that fining parents should be a last resort and should be reserved for those cases where there is clearly a wilful refusal to allow that child their right to an education. There was a recent report of the House of Commons select committee dealing with these matters that came to exactly that same conclusion, and that is the policy of the Welsh Government and has been throughout the COVID period. The Minister is due to provide further details of the attendance taskforce in the next couple of weeks. He will say more about how that taskforce will help us to set a direction to make sure that priorities are agreed across the system here in Wales and to help us to find those tangible actions, working with others, that will drive up improvements in attendance, re-engage those learners who, for whatever reasons, have decided to absent themselves from education, and the Minister will set out some timelines for that at the same time.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Now, as the Conservative Party conference unraveled on day one, reports emerged that the UK Government was scrapping HS2 from Birmingham North to Manchester. It was never a project to benefit Wales, of course, but, without that link at Crewe, it is now beyond any doubt that what Plaid Cymru has been saying is right, that this is an England-only project, improving England's railways at our expense. Now, I note the insistence of the Conservative leader here that making the case for Wales to receive its fair share of HS2 funding is beyond his pay grade. Some people would argue that the leader of the Tories here shouldn't be on any pay grade if he doesn't think it's his business to stand up for Wales, but there we are. I know the First Minister agrees with me that Welsh railways have been historically underfunded by UK Governments, and that's Governments of both colours, of course. I know he also agrees with me that HS2 should be reclassified and consequentials paid to Wales. But, as the economic injustice becomes ever clearer, why does the First Minister believe that both the Conservative Prime Minister and the Labour leader of the opposition still choose to ignore that?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think it would be a fairer representation of the position across the Senedd to say that parties right across the Chamber have been in favour of making sure that a consequential from HS2 comes to Wales. It is far from an exclusively Plaid Cymru position; it's the position of the Government, and latterly it's been the position of the official opposition here as well. I agree with what the leader of Plaid Cymru has said, that, if there is to be no link beyond Birmingham, then the flimsy case for regarding this as an England-and-Wales development collapses completely, and, at that point, the case for making sure of a consequential for Wales will be stronger still. Wales has already missed out on £270 million as a result of HS2 misclassification in the current spending review period. That will only grow beyond that unless and until this misclassification is put right; that is the position of the Welsh Government, and has been for an extended period of time.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I agree, and I want to work together on this. We know that the billions of pounds of HS2 consequentials being withheld from Wales could have a transformative impact on our country, including on our own transport system. I flew to the United States last week, and it took less time than it did for my daughter to travel by train from Bangor to Cardiff. Given the awful experiences of rail travel in Wales, reported to us by our constituents week after week, and given cuts in buses too—and Plaid Cymru will be leading a debate on buses tomorrow—the money just can't come soon enough. The Tory leader, as I said, has given up on fighting for Wales, but, given that Keir Starmer is also refusing to commit to giving us the consequentials, can I ask what pitch the First Minister has made to him on how transport in Wales could be improved using this money, because Labour hasn't yet been able to give us an integrated transport system, but some joined-up thinking on this would be most welcome?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I hear what the Member said about flying to the United States; I see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer flew to Manchester, presumably because he couldn't find a way of getting there by train.
Look, as I've explained many times to the leader of Plaid Cymru, the leader of the Labour Party, looking to, if Labour is successful in the general election, leading the next Government, will be weighing up a whole range of different priorities that people from across the United Kingdom will be putting to Labour's Treasury team, and I think, entirely understandably, he is not in a position to go agreeing piecemeal to one sort of possibility after another. However, you can be sure that the case for additional investment in Wales, and particularly the case for making sure that HS2 is properly classified—and there'll be an opportunity to do that, because transport comparability factors will change once the current comprehensive spending review period is over, so there'll be an opportunity for that to happen—that that case is made regularly and with the sort of determination that you would expect, given the views of politicians across this Chamber.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: My case, of course, that I would put forward, is that the injustice is so clear on HS2 that the commitment should be made now without any ambiguity at all.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'll turn to another injustice now: the lack of control over Welsh water. As with trains, I think we pay too much for a service that isn't good enough when it comes to our water supply, and now we've heard that bills are about to increase. The truth is that we in Wales must have control of our own water to enable us to manage it better, to tackle issues around sewage, to ensure fair levels of bills, insist on a fair price for the 600 million litres of water that go to private companies in England every day. Unfortunately, a lack of action from the Welsh Government is holding us back in this area, and the request hasn't been made for these powers to be transferred, and, in the meantime, and the delays don't help, the customers are out of pocket—as much as £120 per annum more on bills by 2030. Is the First Minister willing to give them an assurance that there will be no further delays in terms of the request for the devolution of powers, so that we can make the necessary investments and keep bills down?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think that the leader of Plaid Cymru is mixing a whole host of things there. I had an opportunity to meet with the chief executive of Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water last week, and I heard from them about the plans that they have to invest in things that are important to the people of Wales, as we've heard on the floor of the Senedd week after week. And that doesn't depend on the powers at all. The powers can do some things, but the powers aren't relevant to the issues that Dŵr Cymru and Hafren Dyfrdwy are facing in investing in everything that we want them to do in Wales without having an impact on those people who pay bills. But, after debates here on the floor of the Senedd, the Government has said that we are going to pursue those powers that are there in the 2017 legislation. Officials are doing that work now. It's very detailed work, because it's very complex to draw down those powers to Wales, but the process has begun. After everything that the Government has done, the Minister has said on the floor of the Senedd, the process is ongoing.

Rail Funding

Delyth Jewell AC: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of rail funding in Wales? OQ60024

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that, Llywydd. We're making huge investments in our railways—£800 million in new trains and over £1 billion in electrifying the Valleys lines. But we cannot continue to invest without fair funding from the United Kingdom Government, and the failure to provide a consequential from the English HS2 project is only one example of a wider failure to invest in Wales.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. Wales has lost out at every stage of the HS2 fiasco, and now it's being reported that the Manchester line will be scrapped. That means that this track won't run anywhere near our nation, that it won't benefit us at all. But, as we've already heard this afternoon, this will still cost us billions of pounds. Why on earth should we be paying towards this sham of a project? Just some of those billions of pounds that we have been denied could be used to electrify the entirety of Wales's rail routes and ensure we had a fully functioning bus network to service our communities. But instead we are left less connected than before, out of pocket, out of options. Now, I've heard your earlier answers on this, Prif Weinidog, but would you commit that you will make the case that Wales should be given those billions of pounds to whoever is in Downing Street next year? Is that a commitment that you will make, because Wales cannot afford to be so shamefully short changed?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course, Llywydd, I commit to making that case and making it as powerfully as Members on the floor of the Senedd do regularly. Delyth Jewell is right that, with the money that should have come Wales's way, we could have done even more to see to the electrification of rail services here in Wales. She will know the figures: 35 per cent of the railways are electrified across the United Kingdom; it's more like 45 per cent in England, and its 2 per cent in Wales. Under the stewardship of the current UK Government, 26 km of the rail network in Wales is electrified. When we complete the electrification of the Valleys lines, those parts of the system that are under this Senedd's control, we will have electrified 170 km through that system and other things that we do in Wales. The contrast could not be more obvious, and, were that money to have come to Wales, of course there is more that we could and would have done, and that's why I go on making the case wherever I have that opportunity.

Laura Anne Jones AC: First Minister, rail connectivity and services across Wales are a wholly inadequate alternative to car use. Only last week your Government doubled down and refused to reverse your disastrous 20 mph default blanket speed limit. Rumours are rife now that you're planning to reduce speed limits across Wales to a maximum of 50 mph. Will you rule this out?

Mark Drakeford AC: I rule it out today, as I ruled it out last week. I look forward to her and her colleagues reporting that in all the outlets that they have at their disposal, so that the rumours that are rife can be put to rest. No such plans exist. It will not happen. You can help to make sure that people understand that.

Hefin David AC: The rail service in my constituency has been transformed since I was first elected in 2016, and it is vastly improved, with the new trains in service and electrification under way. One service we'd like to see developed—and I've written to Transport for Wales about this this week—is a potential service between Nelson and Ystrad Mynach. And I think I should declare an interest as a former resident of Ystrad Mynach and a current resident of Nelson. Certainly, it would be handy to a lot of people who live in my community. It's actually proposed in the Cardiff capital region city deal as a priority rail scheme for 2020-21, as a proposed scheme, which would have stops in both Tredomen business park and in Nelson. There's an existing freight line that is there and functional. So, I'm asking for Transport for Wales to discuss this with me. What further support can the Welsh Government give to that service that would connect east and west in my constituency?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for that. He makes a strong personal case for the further investment in such a service and the truth is, Llywydd, that there are potential developments in railway reopening in many parts of Wales, and many of us in our constituency capacities make that case. Improvements to that line, as the Member said, are part of a longer term aspiration for the region, as set out in the Cardiff capital region's current transport plan. I have to be realistic with Members here: there are more plans than there are funds and, in the end, there will have to be a prioritisation of all of that, and I'm sure the Member will make his powerful case as to why an Ystrad Mynach-Nelson link would be high on that list.

Alun Davies AC: People in Blaenau Gwent very much welcome the investment that the Welsh Government has been making in the Ebbw valley line, of course, the £70 million that the Welsh Government has provided to ensure that we do have two trains an hour going down that line. But, of course, what that does is emphasise the paucity of investment that we have from the UK Government. The real tragedy about HS2 is that everybody here knows that if that investment was needed in London, then the money would be found. The money would be found if it was needed in London, and it's not simply about a single line between Birmingham and Manchester; it's about the integrity of the United Kingdom. And the reality is that the Conservatives simply are not interested in the integrity of the United Kingdom. The one thing that has been striking over the last few days has been the utter silence from the Welsh Conservatives. A debate is taking place on Northern Powerhouse rail. Nobody in the Conservative Party is talking about Wales, and if you want a metaphor for the last 100 years, that is probably it. First Minister, will the Welsh Government continue to step in when the Tory UK Government fails Wales, and will the Welsh Government continue to argue to ensure that the integrity of the United kingdom is recognised when these decisions are taken?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Member makes a series of powerful points. Let me just respond to two of them. In the period before HS2 became the topic of debate it is today, in the Senedd term between 2011 and 2016 the Welsh Government contributed some £362 million to wider public sector spending on railways, and at the same time we also invested over £220 million in rail infrastructure enhancement. And remember, we are not the primary mover in rail investment. In that period I've just—. If you add those two figures together, it comes to £582 million spent through Welsh funds. In that same period, the UK Government invested £198 million on all their responsibilities in Wales. So, of course, the point Alun Davies makes about this being a long-term neglect of Welsh interests is true.
Let me take the point that he made about the integrity of the United Kingdom as well, Llywydd, because the Welsh Government has invested considerable time and effort into providing evidence and information to the UK connectivity review, led by Peter Hendy. This was a review set up by—of course, it was several Prime Ministers ago—a UK Conservative Government. Lord Terry Burns, as part of his work on the south-east rail network in Wales, went and provided evidence directly to the Hendy review. What have we heard of it, Llywydd? Where has it gone? Where are the ambitions that that review set out, in which we were directly interested because of wishing to invest in the second rail line that links south Wales into England? Where has the review disappeared? I’ve said, I remember, before on the floor of the Senedd to the leader of the opposition that this was a real test of a Conservative Government, to put some genuine investment behind the rhetoric that it deploys about the United Kingdom. If we knew that Wales was going to get its share of that connectivity review investment, it would go a long way to answering some of the points that Alun Davies has made. Instead, we simply have utter silence.

Road User Charging

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 4. What plans does the First Minister have to introduce road user charging for motorists? OQ60031

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, powers to implement universal road charging and to retain revenues are held by the UK Secretary of State for Transport. Welsh Ministers can provide powers to local authorities to implement local schemes. There are no plans to introduce charges for motorists on Welsh Government-managed trunk roads.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First Minister, I’m sorry, but I think you’re being disingenuous with me, and indeed with our electors. According to your own 'National Transport Delivery Plan 2022 to 2027', you stated
'We will also motivate people away from private car use',
and that you have
'a commitment to develop a national road user charging framework.'
In the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill, there is every intention to introduce a road charging scheme. Last week, you told my colleague Andrew R.T. Davies that it is only a fallback position. So, how can it be, when you’re actually bringing it into law? Section 2(b) even states that you’ve got to
'provide an estimate of the net proceeds of the scheme'
for the next five years, so how can you deny that you intend to draw revenue at the expense of our motorists? Isn’t this typical of your Government saying one thing and doing another?
It is time for you as a Government to be more upfront and honest. Given the number of petition signatures that are being received at the moment from laws that you have introduced, I would have hoped that lessons could have been learned. So, what practical steps are you taking now, as our First Minister, to row back on your own commitments to bringing in road user charging here in Wales? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, no doubt, in a week or two, one of the Member's colleagues will be saying to me that rumours are rife that road charging is going to be introduced in Wales, despite the fact that I answered a question last week making it clear that there are no such plans, and I repeated that to the Member this afternoon, and the Minister could not have been clearer in front of the committee.
Let me try and help the Member if I can, because she may remember—she may remember—that there was a court case taken against the UK Government, in which the Welsh Government was also involved, and where the High Court found that the plans of the UK Government and the plans of the Welsh Government did not satisfy the requirements of the air quality directive, and therefore we did not have a compliant plan. We are obliged to have a compliant plan. It is a legal requirement, and the legal requirement is to deliver a compliant plan in the shortest time possible. That means that, when you bring forward measures, you have, at the same time, to identify what the law calls precautionary retained measures in case—in case—the measures you are putting in place do not succeed in meeting the requirements of the law.
As I explained to the leader of the opposition last week, the thrust of the Bill in front of the Senedd is to do everything we can to tackle that problem without needing recourse to those precautionary retained measures. You have to have them there. They are a legal obligation, and the Welsh Government, of course, will live up to that legal obligation. But our intention is, through all the other measures that the Bill sets out, to succeed in dealing with air quality measures—air quality measures that I've often heard opposition party Members here tell me are very important, and that we need to do more. We will do those things. Actions we are already taking, including, for example, a 50 mph restriction on some roads where air quality is at its worst, are succeeding, and we will do more in that way. The charging regime is, as I explained last week, a fallback measure, should those other measures not succeed. We intend them to succeed.
So, this is the second opportunity this afternoon, Llywydd, for Conservative Party Members to make sure that people outside this Chamber have accurate information, so that those rumours do not need to circulate. Let me repeat the answer again, so that the Member can make sure that she is telling people who contact her the truthful position. There are no plans—here's the answer, this is what you need to tell people should they ask you—there are no plans, no plans to introduce charges for motorists on Welsh Government-managed trunk roads. That should put the rumours to bed, Llywydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Given that we don't have any road charging in Wales, what inspiration are you taking from Tory-run England where they have a large number of toll roads and congestion charging schemes?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, that is a very fair point that the Member makes. There are road charging schemes, and they're to be found across the border where the opposition party is in charge. We do study those things, of course we study those things. You want to see if there are any lessons that we might learn from where the Conservative Party is in charge. At the moment, none of those lessons lead us to a plan to introduce road charging on Welsh-managed trunk roads.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: First Minister, over the last few days we've had a series of attacks by Conservatives on policies that simply don't exist, except in their own minds. The Conservatives are apparently going to stop the 'meat tax'. What meat tax? They're going to scrap compulsory car sharing. What compulsory car sharing? In Manchester, in the conference, the total falsehood of a blanket 20 mph speed limit in Wales has been repeated like a chorus of lobotomised parrots. And this latest fiction in the land of Conservative make-believe paints a false picture of road charging tollbooths, resurrected on every road in Wales, awaiting an army of new Rebeccas to overthrow the gatekeepers. Once again, it's a load of old tosh from a party that is plummeting in credibility and in the polls. But, does he share my despair that a Conservative Party, which seemed to have moved reluctantly towards the scientific consensus, is now playing culture wars with matters as vitally important as climate change and air quality?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I agree with Huw Irranca-Davies, Llywydd, that these are the desperate actions of a Government and a party that knows it has lost the confidence of people in the United Kingdom, and where an election is desperately needed in order to give people in this country the fresh start that they need. I sometimes think, though, Llywydd that things are even worse than the position Huw Irranca-Davies set out. Anybody who heard the UK Secretary of State for Transport yesterday giving credence and credibility to those conspiracy theorists who gather around the idea that 15-minute neighbourhoods are an attempt to control the way that people live their lives, would know that there are Ministers prepared to move into pretty dark areas. The people who promote that entirely fact-free conspiracy-based idea, I think, do a great disservice. They do a great disservice to rational debate in this country. They know there's nothing in it, but they're prepared to stoke up that sort of feeling in order, as Huw Irranca-Davies said, to extract some tiny culture war advantage to assuage their desperation.

Community Resilience

Vikki Howells AC: 5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve community resilience? OQ60033

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, amongst the actions taken by successive Welsh Labour Governments has been the community facilities fund, a fund sustained across the devolution era that has supported new facilities in communities in every part of Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, First Minister. New research from Building Communities Trust highlights the link between community infrastructure and resilience. And while the picture is nuanced, one of the standouts for me was the link between deprivation and community resilience, with the Valleys having the highest proportion of what are called 'less-resilient' areas in Wales. First Minister, I know that strengthening the resilience of communities across Wales is a key priority for your Government, although it's something that isn't helped by conference announcements from other parties that offer headlines, but where the small print shows there is no real help at all. What is the Welsh Government doing to respond to the six key recommendations contained in this report and offer our communities the real help that they need?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Vikki Howells for that, Llywydd. I note her reference to the so-called 'towns initiative' announced as part of Conservative Party conference publicity. Vikki Howells is absolutely right, Llywydd; that is exactly the sort of announcement that undermines attempts to build up community resilience, because the gap between the headline and the reality is so great. First of all, Llywydd, it was clearly headlined as a 'towns initiative', and yet included the city of Wrexham. Presumably, central office hadn't got the memo that explained that Wrexham had become a city under their own watch. The headline then said there would be £20 million for each of these towns. You've got to burrow into the small print, haven't you, to find that that's £20 million over 10 years, and that, of the £20 million, should they be there to deliver it, which, of course, they don't believe they will be, £5 million is revenue. The rest of it is capital expenditure. No wonder people in those communities feel the gap between the understanding that people on the ground have of their needs—local authority leaders, by the way, found out about the investment by reading a newspaper, it's really just disgraceful—and the headline plucked out of Whitehall, which demonstrates fully how community resilience can be undermined rather than strengthened.
The report to which the Member referred is an important new report, I agree with that. It has six recommendations. Some of them will undoubtedly crystallise over the weeks ahead—for example, its idea of dealing with the dormant assets fund. We will hear from the National Lottery authorities, I think, in coming weeks, about the plans that they have to use that fund here in Wales. We will read the report carefully and see what other lessons there may be for adding to the actions the Welsh Government already takes to improve community resilience in Wales.

Russell George AC: First Minister, I'm very keen to see community resilience improve in regard to local energy networks, and I'm very keen that power that is generated locally is used locally. We'll see, of course, an increased demand for power, and we'll see increased farm-scale renewable projects, as well, that need to be supported. There are current proposals in my own constituency for large lattice pylons on a 132 kVoverhead line through the Vyrnwy valley, linked to the grid in Shropshire. Of course, the First Minister will remember very much at the time he and I were elected, there was large opposition in mid Wales to the mid Wales connection project, which caused a great deal of concern because of the beautiful landscapes, of course, that mid Wales has. In the consultation—and I can see at the moment—this current proposal is about taking power out of a community, rather than bringing power into a community. I was very keen to see the written statement on the publication of the 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report in July, published by the Welsh Government. I'd be grateful, First Minister,for your assessment of the correct balances between creating that large infrastructure, which takes power out of communities, versus local energy networks, which help to provide for local energy and small-scale renewables to be used to generate towns and villages locally, as opposed to larger infrastructure projects, and negating the need for those.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. I think that it's an important question, where the answer, in the end, has to be that you have to have a balance between those two things. There are parts of Wales that we will need, in future, to make their contribution to wider national needs. The difficulty there is that we do not have a national grid fit for that purpose, and so you end up with the risk that pylons will be created in order to transport energy from where it is produced to where the national grid is able to take it.
The Welsh Government's policy is that there should be underground, not overground, transmission. But that transmission will be important, and there are parts of Wales, already, we know—offshore wind in north Wales, for example—that make that contribution to wider national needs.However, in order to make that acceptable in communities, community ownership of energy generation is an important part of how we persuade people that that is the best way in which they can help make that national contribution, so that there is energy for community purposes.
We have an ambition to increase the percentage of energy that is generated from renewable sources in Wales that is community owned. We have made significant progress on that over recent years, and we will do more in future. By developing those models and persuading major developers to offer a community component in the ownership of the energy that is created in those localities, we will do more, I think, to persuade those communities that making that contribution to national needs also has a local benefit for them as well.
Getting the balance right, I think, isn't easy to do in a general formula. You probably have to navigate that in the specific circumstances of each new development. But the points that the Members makes are important, and ones that I think are reflected in the approach that the Welsh Government takes.

Socioeconomic Impact of Policies

Mark Isherwood AC: 6. How does the Welsh Government evaluate the socioeconomic impact of its policies in North Wales? OQ60006

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government uses UK Government guidance—the Magenta Book, as it's called—as the basis for evaluation of socioeconomic policy updates. That is supported by independent research and evaluation of policies adopted in north Wales and elsewhere.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. As a constituent e-mailed a fortnight ago regarding the 182-day threshold for holiday lets:
'Same old is being trotted out by the Welsh Government. None of their statements is being borne out by facts. Every one has been dreamed up to prop up the rhetoric.'
Regarding the socioeconomic impact, a survey commissioned by the Wales Tourism Alliance, UKHospitality and the Professional Association of Self-Caterers UK already shows that fewer than 25 per cent of Welsh self-caterers will hit the threshold in this year of soft demand, higher mortgages and a cost-of-living crisis, even though over 70 per cent have said that they are discounting to try and achieve it.
How, therefore, do you respond to the legitimate holiday small business owner in Denbighshire, who e-mailed:
'We've taken the decision to cut our losses, salvage what's left of our mental health and close down',
and to the legitimate self-catering small business owner in Flintshire, whose property is now on the market, who e-mailed:
'A number of major lenders have said that they would not provide mortgage support, which would seriously affect people's ability to sell their property'?
These are two examples, sadly, among many that I am receiving.

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government's policy is there for a reason. It is there to distinguish properly between holiday lets that are organised on a commercial basis and those that fall below a commercial threshold. The number of days that a property has to be available for letting, and the number of days that it has to be let, are there to make that distinction.
If you are a business, then it is reasonable that you let your property for the number of days that we now require in Wales. If you don't do so, that doesn't meanthat you can't go on letting your property, it simply means that you don't benefit from the business rate reliefs that would otherwise be available to you; you simply pay the council tax like everybody else and you let your property for fewer days. There's nothing unfair about that. What it actually is is fair to every other taxpayer.

Preventative Healthcare

Altaf Hussain AS: 7. How will the Welsh Government protect preventative healthcare measures in the forthcoming budget? OQ60018

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government remains committed to prevention in healthcare services. Tomorrow, for example, we will add to the repertoire of our outstandingly successful screening services when the bowel screening programme will be widened to include 51 to 54-year-olds for the first time in Wales.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister. There can be no doubt that times are tough for public finances. Despite having the best performing economy in the G7, taxes, as a proportion of income, have risen to an all-time high. Sadly, the cost of the pandemic, together with Government efforts to curb the energy and cost-of-living crises, means that UK national debt stands at £2.5 trillion, equivalent to 101 per cent of GDP. So, hard choices have to be made, which I accept. However, we cannot allow short-term thinking to influence our decisions. Health prevention spend can save millions in the long term. I'm told that one of the programmes likely to be cut is the all-Wales diabetes prevention programme. First Minister, this programme is working, with 14 of the 16 practices involved in the pilot reporting significantly fewer patients being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. This work is invaluable and needs to continue. Therefore, First Minister, will you ensure that such programmes are protected when it comes to setting next year's budget? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. I'm afraid I'm not aware of the specific instance to which he referred, but I do agree with the general point that he made—that investment in prevention in the health service repays you back many, many times over. I'll offer just one example of that, Llywydd, because it was at the time a matter of controversy here on the floor of the Assembly as it was then when we decided to invest in HPV vaccination for young women at that stage—young women while in school. It was opposed by Members on the floor of this Senedd. But those young women who were first offered that vaccination are now in their twenties and the figures are showing that those young women have an 87 per cent lower chance of cervical cancer than an unvaccinated population. That is an absolute illustration of the point that the Member made, where that upfront investment in preventative vaccination will have saved the lives of those young women, most importantly of all, but also all the costs that would've gone into the health service in dealing with the consequence of their illness.

Finally, question 8, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Economic Plans for Dwyfor Meirionnydd

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 8. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Government's regional economic plans for Dwyfor Meirionnydd? OQ60029

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for the question. Our approach to regional economic development draws on support we have secured from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which has international expertise. The OECD team will hold an event focused exclusively on the regional economy of north Wales on 23 October. That will include partners such as Ambition North Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that response. The First Minister will be aware of the development in Penamser—that there is a piece of land in Penamser, Porthmadog, which is owned by the Government but is on offer to a company from Warrington, I believe, for development. The land has been vacant for dozens of years, the Government pays for its maintenance. Local companies in Porthmadog do want to develop on that land, but they don't have the right to access that land for the development that they want to see. This company in Warrington has that right. Will you look into this, and ensure that local companies in Porthmadog have the right to use that land, rather than a company from over the border?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course, I'm willing to look into the case that the Member has drawn attention to. We are willing to do so, because, as the Member will know, the Arfor programme, for example, focuses on the Llwyddo'n Leol programme. We want to develop alongside local people to create economic possibilities in north Wales, and through Arfor, across the whole of Wales too. So, of course, I'm willing to look into the case the the Member has raised this afternoon.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to today's agenda. Later this afternoon, the Minister for Economy will make a statement on the closure of UK Windows & Doors Group Ltd. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, can I call for two statements from the Minister for Health and Social Services, please? The first on the role of the Welsh Government in overseeing managed practices in Wales. I've got a managed practice in Colwyn Bay in my constituency—the West End Medical Centre. I know that it's under pressure from a staffing point of view, but I'm very concerned that, in the last two weeks, on four days in those two weeks, the practice has been putting notices on social media encouraging patients to stay away because they've got exceptional demands on their services, saying that they'll only deal with urgent requests, and encouraging people to go instead to pharmacies, NHS Direct, or, more stressingly, local hospitals, which obviously then piles pressure onto them too.Now, clearly, that's not sustainable in the short term, and there needs to be work to improve that situation, so that patients can get access to appointments where they need them. I know that managed practices are happening elsewhere in Wales as well, and I just wonder to what extent the Welsh Government is aware of the practices in each one of those, to make sure that there's some consistency.
Secondly, can I call for a statement from the Minister on progress towards eliminating smoking on hospital grounds in Wales? As you know, my party fully supported the Welsh Government's introduction of the ban on smoking in hospital grounds; that was the right thing to do. But I'm afraid that, all too frequently, people are still smoking outside our hospital front doors. It is appalling practice. It sends absolutely the wrong messages, and our health boards are not doing enough to make sure that they are stamping this problem out once and for all, by issuing fines or taking other enforcement action as appropriate. So, I'd be grateful for an update on those two things from the Minister. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, both the issues you raise are down to the health boards to manage. I think your latter request is a big issue, and I know, certainly in my own constituency, at the Maelor, where the main entrance is you have a complete collection of stubs. I have to say, the health board have been dealing with that, and I'm sure it's the same in your constituency, but, of course, it's down to people as well. It's not the health boards that put those stubs there, it's people, and it's really important that patients understand, and their relatives, and their visitors, that our hospitals in Wales are smoke-free.
Managed practices are, as you say, part of, I think, general practice now in our primary healthcare system. There is guidance available from Welsh Government to health boards.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I thank the Trefnydd and the Government for ensuring that there is a statement with regard to the very serious situation with UK Windows & Doors? I'm very pleased that we'll have an opportunity to discuss that this afternoon.
I wanted to ask for a statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism on the national collections of Wales that are under the care of the National Library for Wales and Museum Wales. I'm sure you will have seen BBC reports five days ago that around 1,200 items are missing from the national library's collection, with a spokesperson saying:
'We cannot say with certainty that all of these items are on the library's estate'.
This includes several items from the records of the Court of Great Sessions, some of the key papers and work by Cranogwen, Kate Roberts, Dylan Thomas and O.M. Edwards. The National Library of Wales and the Museum Wales have warned the culture committee that there is a risk to the national collections because of their funding situation and the condition of some of the estate. So, because of the importance of these collections, a statement would be appropriate.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The security of collections is an operational matter for the national library. The staff at the library do work to professional standards, including archive service accreditation, to ensure that their collections are safeguarded, while ensuring that they're, obviously, accessible, and that visitors and researchers feel welcome.

Joyce Watson AC: Trefnydd, could the education Minister make a statement on what schools are doing to mark this National Bullying Prevention Month? I visited Ysgol Dyffryn Aman last month to speak to older pupils about how they are engaging with the subject through the new relationship and sexuality education curriculum and I was struck by how they identified respect as their No. 1 priority, with issues around bullying and harassment uppermost in their minds. We're all aware of the pressures young people face today, particularly online, with toxic influencers like Andrew Tate. So, it would be good to hear what is being done in our schools this month to promote the respect agenda and to respond to bullying behaviour.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You raise a very important point. I know the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language is currently updating the guidance that's available to our schools in relation to bullying, but he will be happy to bring forward a written statement.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Business Minister, I'd like to request a statement from the health Minister on the state of accident and emergencyservices in the Grange hospital in my region. I called into the Grange hospital A&E this morning to listen to appallingly long waits once again, and see a packed room. I got told of a 16-hour wait for someone with chest pains and heart palpitations to just see a doctor, and 12-hour waits for someone who'd just been in a car accident, in noticeable pain, to see a doctor; someone else had been sick and not attended to at all. And there were similar and worse cases. I also spoke to a paramedic, who said that long waits and multiple ambulances outside have become the norm, and that upset and frustrated them. This is not okay. The A&E at the Grange was never meant to be an A&E;it's not fit for purpose. Therefore, I'd ask for an oral update in the Chamber on how the Minister is planning to alleviate the current situation and make this vital A&E for my region fit for purpose.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Over the next year, the Minister for Health and Social Services has set a smaller number of clear priorities for our health boards and their partners. For urgent and emergency care, services must focus on the effective management of people with urgent care needs in the community. Clearly, the cases you just gave, and the examples you just gave, are very long waits and aren't acceptable. We're not there; they're being made on clinical grounds. But it is really important that health boards do work with the individual hospitals to significantly reduce the time patients spend, particularly waiting in ambulances outside.

Luke Fletcher AS: Could I request a statement, please, updating the Chamber on support for businesses affected by reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete? No doubt, RAAC has caused a headache for the Government, but it's causing an even bigger headache for traders at Bridgend market, who are unable to trade as the market was closed due to RAAC. Now there are bills that need paying, wages to pay and mortgages to pay—support is needed for them as soon as possible.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I know there were ongoing discussions between Welsh Government and Bridgend local authority. I'm not aware of the outcomes of that. I will certainly ask the Minister, if there's anything that he thinks worthy of a written statement, to do so.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I just really wanted to ask for a statement from yourself with regard to the timeline for public consultation on the proposed licensing changes relating to greyhound racing in Wales. Recent events are very concerning. In July Valley Greyhound Stadium in Ystrad Mynach was granted planning permission to expand, despite fierce opposition from many animal welfare charities. They held their first licensed racing event on 22August, which produced concerning reports of collisions, dogs hitting walls and losing their footing. Two dogs reportedly had to be carried off, with one seriously injured, and withdrawn from sale. We know that 4,354 greyhound racing injuries in England occurred last year, and 244 deaths. So, I would like to know from you how quickly we can move on to hear the voice, hopefully, of Welsh people to oppose greyhound racing here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As the Member and other Members know, I am committed to consulting on the licensing of activities involving animals before the end of this calendar year. Further to a question on the licensing of owners and/or keepers or trainers of racing dogs, I've asked that the consultation also includes a request for evidence to either justify or negate consideration of a potential phased ban. So, we're still on that timeline—before the end of this year.
If I can just say, it was really nice to see both Jane Dodds and Luke Fletcher at an event at lunchtime. Tomorrow is World Animal Day, and it was great that Luke sponsored the event in the Pierhead building, along with the RSPCA, Hope Rescue and Naturewatch Foundation.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Trefnydd, I'd welcome a statement on progress towards better passenger information for buses throughout Wales and whether the forthcoming legislation on buses, together with 'Llwybr Newydd: the Wales transport strategy 2021', will give the opportunity to improve passenger information. Now, I raise this following an excellent meeting and a Q&A session attended by Sarah Murphy and myself in Bridgend College's STEAM Academy in Pencoed. It was organised by Leonard Cheshire as part of the 'My Voice My Choice' workshops. It was really noticeable how much of the discussion focused on transport issues, but especially the lack of good passenger information on the app that is now used by many of the young people who were there, but also the lack of information at stations and the absence of bus stop signage, too, when buses are delayed or cancelled. Improvement in this area would be a massive improvement in the travel experience of many of those young people. So, I'd really appreciate a debate or a statement on this.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I absolutely agree, better passenger information is vital. As somebody who uses buses in Cardiff and Wrexham, in Cardiff it is so much better than we have in Wrexham. It would be good to see far more consistency across the country.
As you know, over £19 million of local transport funding has been allocated to our local authorities in this financial year to improve bus infrastructure, interchange, information and bus priority, and we have our bus reform Bill, which will enable us to provide clear, easy to use and reliable passenger information right across Wales.

Delyth Jewell AC: Trefnydd, two young boys in my region have been injured seriously by fireworks that were set off in a park in Hengoed, where they were playing. It's been reported that one of those little boys may have lost his hand. I'm sure the whole Chamber would join me in sending their thoughts and best wishes to those young boys and their families, but bonfire night is still a month away and, every year, we seem to hear horrible stories about life-changing injuries that are suffered because of fireworks. Surely—isn't it time that the sale of fireworks should be banned except for professional displays? So, could the Government please bring forward a statement before we reach bonfire night, outlining what consideration is being given in consultation with the emergency services to bring forward such a ban, because those little boys' lives could be affected forever by this one thing, and it didn't need to happen?

Lesley Griffiths AC: No, indeed. I'm very sorry to hear of the incident and, as you say, unfortunately, most years we do hear of very similar events. I will certainly ask the Minister for Climate Change if she's had any further discussions with the UK Government, because obviously the powers do lie with the UK Government, but I know there were ongoing discussions, so I will ask the Minister for Climate Change to update Members if there have been any further discussions with the UK Government.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Given that Jacob Rees-Mogg has said this week that he wants to see hormone-injected beef from Australia come to this country so that he can eat it, could we have a statement from the Welsh Government offering to buy him a one-way ticket to Australia, where he can eat it to his heart's content?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I was quite horrified to see that article—somebody sent it to me, actually, as well; I think it was the Farmers Guardian that was discussing it—and to hear him say that. As you know, we made it very clear as a Government to the UK Government that, when we left the European Union, we did not expect our animal welfare standards or our environmental standards or the standards of our food to drop in any shape or form. Unfortunately, I think it's fair to say, some of the trade deals we have seen would not be the trade deals that we would have negotiated as a Welsh Government.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: The Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill

The next item will be the statement by the Counsel General now on the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill. The Counsel General, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Yesterday, the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill and explanatory memorandum were laid before the Senedd, the next building block in creating a modern twenty-first century Welsh electoral system. The Bill builds on our earlier achievements, such as the extension of the franchise to young people between 16 and 17 years of age and qualifying foreign citizens in Wales, and announcing a clear framework for electoral reform.
Last October, we published a White Paper setting out proposals for the next steps to take forward our framework for electoral reform. I would like to thank those who responded to our consultation. There was a great deal of support for our ambitions, and I have listened carefully to all views, and, as a result, I have adjusted some of our proposals. We will continue to work closely with our delivery partners as we continue our modernisation journey.

Mick Antoniw AC: Llywydd, the Bill takes forward the White Paper measures I committed to implementing in response to our consultation. At the heart of the Bill lie our six principles of electoral reform: equity, accessibility, participation, improved citizen experience, simplicity and integrity. If enacted, the Bill will modernise and reform electoral administration for Welsh elections, elected bodies and their members. The Bill and wider reform package will help drive up participation in Welsh elections. It will improve accessibility for disabled people and take steps to ensure every eligible voter is registered to vote at Welsh elections, support candidates from diverse backgrounds to stand for election, clarify the offence of undue influence and establish an electoral management board to strengthen electoral administration. The Bill will also provide for the reform of the processes for conducting community and electoral reviews, abolish the Independent Remuneration Panel for Wales and confer the remuneration functions formerly undertaken by the panel on the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru.
A fortnight ago, we introduced a Bill to increase the size of the Senedd. Wales’s new electoral boundaries will be finalised by the reviews that Bill allows for, but it is inevitable that 16 constituencies will require joint working between all of the local authority teams across Wales. So, to strengthen efforts to co-ordinate elections and support resilience in their administration, the elections and elected bodies Bill creates an electoral management board. The board will have responsibility for oversight of the co-ordination and administration of Welsh elections, collaborating with returning officers and electoral registration officers, and advising Welsh Ministers on the administration of Welsh elections. There will be benefits for citizens too. The Bill will also require the Welsh Ministers, through regulations, to establish and operate an online platform with candidate and voter information regarding Senedd and ordinary principal council elections to help build understanding about elections in Wales.
Members will have seen the shocking finding by the Electoral Commission that, despite all the hard work of our electoral registration officers, our local government registers remain stubbornly at only 87 per cent complete. Now, whilst this is an increase of six percentage points over the past four years, it cannot be acceptable in a modern democracy that there are some 400,000 Welsh citizens who, for whatever reason, are not on the electoral register. It remains a significant challenge to the health of our democracy, and we need to do more to ensure that everyone entitled to vote is on the register and has the opportunity, if they so choose, to participate in Senedd and local government elections. The Bill will make it easier for individuals to be included on the electoral register through the proposed new provisions requiring all electoral registration officers to automatically register eligible electors for the local government register and to issue a notice of registration to each eligible elector. 
To improve the democratic participation of disabled people, we will bring accessibility rules for elections in Wales in line with UK legislation, and make it easier for disabled people to vote independently and secretly. The Bill will require the Electoral Commission to report on the steps taken by the returning officers to help disabled people vote in elections, supporting measures taken forward through secondary legislation.
The Bill clarifies the offence of undue influence, making it more straightforward to prosecute cases in the future. This incorporates the changes made by the Elections Act 2022 to reduce complexity in the electoral system. Similarly, we will clarify some rules in relation to campaign finance.
The Bill will require the Welsh Ministers to take steps to increase opportunities for under-represented groups to play a full role in supporting and representing their communities by standing for elected office. It will build on our pilot scheme of financial assistance to help disabled candidates in a Welsh election overcome their barriers to participation.
The Bill will also clarify the process for electoral reviews, allowing a clear programme and space before affected elections to ensure that voters, campaigners and administrators can operate confidently.
The Welsh Government has worked with partners to develop detailed cost estimates that set out the projected financial implications of this legislation over a 10-year appraisal period, from 2024 to 2034. This covers two election cycles for Senedd and local government elections. We estimate the total costs for the Bill over this period at just under £20 million. This reflects the value we place on democracy. We will fund local authorities and the Local Democracy and Boundary Commission for Wales for the costs arising from the Bill.
Our ambition is to ensure legislative, administrative and digital requirements are in place at least six months before the next set of elections in 2026 and 2027 in accordance with the Gould convention to give local authorities time to plan and prepare for implementation.Our reforms are ambitious, and there will be further modernisation through the detailed rules about the conduct of elections, which we are reviewing and intend to remake ahead of the 2026 Senedd elections. So, this journey will continue beyond this Senedd, and we have ambitions that we will look to introduce in a future Senedd.
In closing, I wish to once again thank everyone who has contributed to our democracy by standing for the privilege and responsibility of public office and public service, and our dedicated colleagues who administer elections in Wales, now and in the future. I look forward to the scrutiny of the Bill by Members, and to hearing the views of stakeholders, delivery partners and the public during the legislative process. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for an advance copy of his statement? He's very busy in his team and department at the moment, of course, because this is one of three Bills that are being worked on by the Welsh Government. It's a little bit like when you wait for a bus for a long time and then three seem to come along at once. It strikes me that that's what it's like in your department at the moment, Minister.
I have to say there's a lot we can welcome in this Bill. I'm not sure that this Bill should be your priority at the moment as a Government, but given that you've brought it forward, there's a lot we can welcome. We can certainly welcome the action that's been taken to promote diversity, the work that the Welsh Government wants to do, particularly, to support disabled voters. I like the idea of a voter information platform so that we get some consistency across Wales too. I think it is right that the electoral management board will be created and put on a statutory footing to replace the current voluntary arrangements with the Wales electoral co-ordination board. I also like the fact that we're going to know more about our candidates who are standing for elections as well, through the introduction of candidate surveys, and the fact that the access to elected office fund is going to become a permanent fixture here in Wales in order to help overcome some of those financial barriers that some candidates face when they're at a particular disadvantage.
But, as you would expect me to say, there are other parts of the Bill that I'm not convinced by. I'm not convinced, for example, that we need to move forward with automatic voter registration at this moment in time. I'm not against automatic voter registration; I'm just not persuaded that now is the time to move forward with this, because we all know that you're also making provisions for pilots of automatic voter registration in the Bill. I would far rather see some pilots conducted first to see whether there are any teething problems before you actually legislate for the introduction of an automatic voter pilot. We know that where automatic voter registration schemes have been rolled out elsewhere in the western world, they've not always been successful. Over in the United States, we've actually seen turnout go down, and we've seen tens of thousands of errors in California where this was rolled out. I know that that's obviously a much bigger population than we have here in Wales, but that to me suggests that we're not going to be without problems here in Wales too. And voting is a right; it's not a civic duty, it's not an obligation that we place on people, and, therefore, registering to vote shouldn't be something that people are obliged to do. So, one thing that we do need to make sure is in this Bill, as it goes through the Senedd, if voter registration is something that the Senedd chooses to impose upon people in Wales, are opportunities to opt out of that. And, Minister, I’d be grateful for your comments and feedback on whether that could be provided for.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Darren Millar AC: When it comes to pilots, we know that there have been some voting pilots in Wales that took place on early voting earlier this year. We had a report on that and, of course, that concluded that they were pretty unsuccessful, actually. The turnout was lower in those areas that had those early voter pilots than it was in other parts of Wales, and we know it was a very, very costly exercise as well; I think it was £845 per voter that that added to the cost. So, that's why I think do some pilots on this automatic voter registration system first, because we don't know what data we're going to be using. We want to make sure that this is going to be as accurate as possible. We don't want people registered two or three times because they pop up on different data systems in different places, when they're only eligible to vote once in an election, for example. So, all of those things, I think, need careful consideration, and that's why I’m not averse, as I say, to changing the voter registration system, but I do think the system that we've got is pretty foolproof, pretty simple, and if it ain't broke, why are we trying to fix it?
One of the other things I just want to comment on as well, if I may, Minister, is that I note that you are wanting to scrap the Independent Remuneration Panel for Wales, give the responsibility for those decisions to the Electoral Commission. Again, whether that's the right approach, I'm not too sure, but I am interested to hear what the evidence is as things progress through the Senedd and we take evidence from the different organisations at a committee stage. But I notice that the rationale for you doing that is because it's been there for 10 years, you've seen its work, and you think now is the opportunity to change it, given some of the other functions that the Electoral Commission holds. We, of course, have a remuneration board here in the Senedd as well, for Senedd Members—[Interruption.] I appreciate that, but this is an important point.

And you've had five minutes to do it, so close, please, Darren.

Darren Millar AC: I am. The remuneration board that affects our pay and allowances here in the Senedd has been in place for 13 years and has never been subject to review, and I wonder whether the Welsh Government has considered whether it might be an opportunity as well to make improvements to the remuneration and pay arrangements for Members of the Senedd to make sure that they’re fair, equitable and that we have a system that works and is efficient. And can you tell us, Minister, whether that is something that you considered as part of the Bill, and, if not, whether it's something that you might consider as it progresses through its committee stage? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank you firstly for, I think, supporting what I think we all recognise as the need to modernise and improve many aspects of our electoral system? And we all want to see greater diversity, greater participation, in many ways. Perhaps I'll start with the last point you raised. You raised a number of important points, and I think they are all points that will, obviously, arise during the scrutiny process of what is, I think, an important reform. You said the system isn't broke. Well, I’d say a system where 400,000 people in Wales aren’t on the electoral register, where some of the evidence we have is where there is confusion as to whether people are entitled to vote or not, I think is something that needs to be addressed. I actually take this point from the Electoral Commission. This is what they wrote to me on 15 September 2023. They carried out their assessment of elections within Wales. They said the local government register was 87 per cent complete and 89 per cent accurate. The parliamentary register was 88 per cent complete and 90 per cent accurate. And what they say is, 'Evidence from our research carried out over more than a decade shows that this is a long-standing problem. It is therefore unlikely that levels of accuracy and completeness, and therefore the number of eligible people able to have their say at elections, will significantly improve without major changes to the electoral registration system.'

Mick Antoniw AC: That, I think, is what we want to address in this Bill, and, bearing in mind that our electoral system is fairly antiquated, fairly archaic, paper based at a time when we have so much technology, and so many elections that take place in so many formats are done either online or they're done without any paper whatsoever, I think what we're doing here is modernising our electoral system for those elections that we have responsibility for, and looking at ways of improving them. I think automatic registration is an actual logical next step.
Can I also say that in terms of pilots—? Well, of course, we need this legislation through to empower us to actually carry out automatic registration, and, if you're going to have a pilot on automatic registration, you have to actually have the system set up for automatic registration in the first place, so we do need to go down that road in any event. The other pilots you refer to, I don't agree that they were unsuccessful. What they were doing was showing how we could actually use technology to actually do elections differently at different places and different times. They were never going to transform the culture of participation and so on. And of course, what this Bill actually does by automatic registration—it doesn't compel people to vote; it just ensures that they are able to vote, and we've all been out when we've had elections on the doorstep, trying to encourage people to participate, and then you come across the people saying, 'Oh, well, I don't think I'm on the electoral register.' Well, in this case, this will actually resolve that problem and it will be an absolute motivation on political parties, because they will know that most people will be on the register. They'll be there to try and persuade and to motivate them.
You do raise a valid point in terms of the opt-out, because this will no longer be an open register in that sense. It will be available to those agencies who need to do it, but it won't be commercially open. There clearly are those groups and those individuals who for a variety of reasons need to maintain confidentiality and shouldn't be on there, and that is contained and will be contained within the Bill and within the processes. What will actually happen is this: everybody that we can identify as accurately as possible will be automatically registered. That will be the duty and the obligation, to put them on. They will then receive a notification that says that they have been included in, now, the automatic register of electors. It will then give them the option if they want to, basically, stay on it but not to be included within the list for that confidentiality reason, but it will also give them the option to opt out completely, so they won't have to be on that. Now, we've thought long and hard about this: 'Well, why do this when making it automatic?' Well, (1) I think very few people will want to challenge it, but all it means is then that the person, if they're not automatically registered, they go back onto the paper register. They still have the same obligations that are there in terms of that, but it takes away the necessity of that happening.
In the US, the issue of voter registration has become an important one. It's become a battleground because there are those who don't want it, because of the issue of what the implications are of more people voting. I think, probably in common across this whole Chamber, irrespective of what the outcomes are of elections, we all know that the health of our democracy, whoever is elected, is dependent on people participating and engaging in that democracy. So, in removing the hurdles for that, this is an example, I think, of Wales actually leading the way in this. I'm pretty sure that at some stage in the not-too-distant future, the UK Government will want to look at the issue of 16-plus voting, but also automatic registration. So, in many ways, we're showing how it can be done and the way to actually do it.
Can I just—? One final thing, then, in terms of the points that you raised on diversity and disability. I think putting the support funding on a statutory basis, making it a permanent duty on Ministers to maintain that, and the recognition of that, that it is one of the things that we do need to achieve, is important. I think, over the last two elections, the fund has supported 21 persons who have applied to it; six of those were successful in elections. I mean, I say no more, whether they would have or wouldn't have et cetera, but it's very clear that there are individuals who have more obstacles than others, and this is one aspect of obstacles that can be removed, and, certainly, as time goes on, we want to look at more obstacles being removed.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you very much for this afternoon's statement.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: We're at the threshold of a new era in the history of Welsh democracy; a quarter of a century after Wales took its first tentative steps along the path of devolution, a range of new legislation, including the Bill before us today, will finally see our democracy come of age.
Electoral administration might not be a topic that sets many hearts racing, but it's nevertheless a critical factor in the health of any democracy. As recent global events have demonstrated, there are dire consequences from neglecting the foundations of democracy and allowing feelings of disengagement and discontent with the electoral process to fester. In this respect, we fully endorse the Welsh Government's commitment to enhance the accessibility of elections in Wales and to ensure that they adequately reflect the needs of our twenty-first century society. This is particularly timely given the UK Government's introduction of the new voter ID requirements for Westminster elections. This is a cynical attempt at voter suppression that was shown at the recent local elections in England to have a disproportionately detrimental impact on people with disabilities, the unemployed and ethnic minorities. Given the fact that there are proportionally more voters in Wales without valid forms of ID compared to the rest of the UK, we are likely to witness similar outcomes here at the next general election.
While the Tories try to narrow the horizons of UK democracy, we should make every effort to expand them here in Wales. As such, the automatic registration of voters in Wales is an eminently sensible proposal to make the process of electoral participation as streamlined as possible. It would also address the ongoing problem of individuals dropping off the electoral register unwittingly, something that is prevalent among young voters.
You will also provide much needed peace of mind for local authorities, who have been expressing serious concerns at the resource and staffing implications of having to check IDs at future general elections. The plans for the establishment of an independent electoral management board will also strengthen the accountability and the transparency of electoral arrangements in Wales, placing their duties on a statutory footing for the first time.
I'd now like to pick up on some of the longer term ambitions outlined in the White Paper. On the issue of enfranchising some prisoners in Wales, as per the recommendations of the Equality, Local Government and Communications Committee, does the Minister agree that implementing this objective is compromised significantly by the non-devolved state of justice in Wales at present? On the issue of electronic voting, has the Government undertaken any research on the practicalities of implementing such arrangements, including estimated costs? And finally, there was a brief discussion last week, which appeared to garner the approval of Members across the Chamber, of the possibility of introducing some form of recall mechanism within the context of a reformed Senedd. I know that you've also previously raised this idea, Minister, so I wonder if you could give a view on a suggestion made by my colleague Adam last week of empowering the standards committee to exclude Members permanently in specific circumstances, with public involvement? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank you for those comments? Can I just say? One thing I've tried in every speech I've made on this, or discussion on this, is to establish amongst the various well-being factors we have the issue of democratic health. Because I think it's something across the whole of the UK—along with issues of equality, environment and so on, I think one of the well-beings that we should be really concerned about is the well-being of our democratic system. And we see what happens in other countries where democratic systems begin to break down.
In terms of the voter ID points you raise, well, my position has always been made very clear on that in terms of why we have not gone down that particular road.
I should mention that I know I forgot, on my last response to Darren Millar on the independent remuneration panel—. That's a matter there for scrutiny. It seemed to make sense, within the package of reforms, that it was logical that that could go within that and within that pool of skills there, and be considered, rather than having yet another separate committee. I think the issue as to what the position will be with the Senedd—to be honest, I think that's a matter for the Senedd to decide itself as to how it thinks that might be, rather than from the Government to be suggesting that.
In terms of the point you raise in terms of justice, I'm not sure if I quite got the point there about what the relevance might be there. But, of course, our ability to take steps in respect of our elections, our non-reserved elections—that is the Senedd elections and the local government elections—comes, obviously, from the 2017 Act. The 2017 Act had advantages and disadvantages. I've always thought that having the management and control of our electoral systems has always been very important.
On the issue of electronic voting, I think it is something that is inevitable in the future, as technology develops. I think the difficulty we have at this moment is, looking to 2026, wanting to ensure the robustness of whatever reforms we do, the robustness and confidence people have in our electoral system, I don't think the technology was quite there, that we're ready for it et cetera. But I'm sure it will be something that will be considered in the next Senedd. And of course, digitisation of the electoral register makes that and many other options possible, and that's why we had some of the pilots that I referred to earlier, which I think were successful in showing that you can do things differently. But there are major challenges to doing it across the whole of Wales, partly because of the rather fragmented historic software systems that we actually have in place. So, there's a job of work to be done there, but we're not there yet for 2026.
And on the issue of a recall mechanism, well it's not part of this; it's not part of the Senedd reform legislation. It is clearly an issue that is more complicated, because of the changes in the voting system you will have where you have a list system and, where vacancies occur, they will be filled and so on. But it is certainly something that I think certainly has merit in discussion, as to what the appropriate mechanism is and the proper thinking through as to how it would actually work, what would be the criteria, particularly where you have a system that no longer has by-elections—that's one of the major challenges. So, I think there's a lot more thinking that needs to go on with it, and the more I think about it, the more complex it becomes. But we want to maximise the accountability of this place to the people of Wales, and that is one of the areas that's been raised and no doubt it'll be raised during further discussions. I think—I hope—I've covered all the points. Thank you.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome the statement by the Counsel General. I welcome that the Bill requires the Welsh Ministers, through regulation, to establish and operate an online platform, with candidate and voter information regarding Senedd and ordinary principal council elections to help build understanding about elections in Wales. It will be easier for individuals to be included on the electoral register through the proposed new provision requiring all electoral registration officers to automatically register eligible voters for the local government register and issue a notice of registration to eligible electors.
I have known people turning up to vote and being turned away because they're not on an electoral register. They've moved recently, they've been in hospital, they've been on a long-term holiday, and, when they return in April, they find, in May, they cannot vote—something that I believe really does need to be put right. Of course, it doesn't address the real problem: the biggest problem is people not wanting to vote for any of us, and that's a challenge that all of us as political parties need to address. It's not the electoral system; it's people actually not being enthused to vote for us. But my first question is: has any further progress been made on allowing online digital voting? If online banking is secure, how can voting be not as secure?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your contribution. Just taking that last point, because it follows on from, I think, the last comments I made to the previous speaker, there's been a lot of thought given to the issues around online digital voting—how it might work, what would be the software requirements, what would be the scale of the investment that was needed, what are the risks if you create a single software system for the whole of Wales. At the moment, we have quite a number of providers and suppliers. And I think the conclusion we've come to is that it is one of those things that will happen in the future. It does need to happen. There are so many areas where we all vote now, don't we, and do things securely that are online. But applying that to the whole of the Welsh electoral system still requires, I think, an enormous amount of work, probably a substantial amount of investment, but certainly a lot of technical data and analysis, a lot of which has been gone through, but it basically came to view that it's not something we can achieve for 2026. But, in order for it to happen anyway, you need to have a digitised electoral register. So, getting that in place is really one of the key priorities, but once that happens I think it triggers a whole series of different options.
You made points again about voter ID. It is not something that we support or thought was necessary, but it doesn't apply in respect of the Welsh elections. And in respect of the platform, I think the platform, again, has to be independent, it has to be robust, it has to be fair, but it is about enabling people to access information in a world of considerable amounts of misinformation, or whatever; it provides basic information to people about the candidates, some of the things they want to say, what they represent, and so on. So, I think that is an opportunity there. So, for 2026, we'd hope to have that in place and it is, obviously, something to build on and is something, as with all legislation like this, you review it subsequently, you assess it, you see how it's working, you discuss it within this forum, and we look to ways of continually improving.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement here this afternoon. I'm certainly looking forward to working on the Bill in my role on the Local Government and Housing Committee. I guess my comments and questions today do come from a local government perspective within the Bill. I'd like to first of all start by echoing the closing remarks of your statement, by thanking all those people who do stand for election, our hard-working councillors who make the effort to get out and seek to get elected because it's so important that that level of democracy continues to take place successfully. And I also thank our hard-working council officers who support that process as well. I think you were right to acknowledge that in your closing remarks here today.
And, like you, I'm disappointed at the level of engagement that we do see at our local council elections, many of those where no elections are taking place at all, let's not forget. It is worth noting that our current electoral system for council elections is a fairly simple, easy-to-understand process. I think those were the words that Darren Millar mentioned earlier in his contribution. So, I guess the point I'd make with that is that any changes that this Bill may seek to bring along, we certainly don't want to be throwing out the baby with the bath water in terms of simplicity, being easy to understand and fairly straightforward to deliver. And from a—

It's time for you to conclude and ask a question now, please.

Sam Rowlands AS: I do apologise, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thought I had more minutes—

It's not a debate, it's a statement, and therefore you've got a minute.

Sam Rowlands AS: —more minutes than the one on this. So, I'll have to rapidly jump to some questions, Minister. It's completely my fault; I do apologise.
Just on that point, though, I just want to perhaps understand your thoughts about the possible divergence we're continuing to see from an administration point of view for our electoral officers from UK election systems through Welsh systems, and how that will be managed.
One quick point that hasn't been mentioned today, because it wasn't mentioned in your statement. In the Bill, there is mention of councillors who lose an election receiving a payment. I wonder what consideration you've given to how much that payment would be, and has that been costed into the £20 million that you mentioned here today? Thank you very much.

Mick Antoniw AC: Okay. Firstly, thank you for those earlier comments, which I recognise. I suppose the first thing to say is that these changes are for 2026, so between now and then—certainly next year—we're likely to have a general election, and so on. So, these have no impact whatsoever in respect of that. You are correct, of course, we do have growing divergence. Of course, we have the divergence that was instigated by UK Government with regard to ID cards. That was managed by the notifications going out telling people that they had to have an ID card, but it only applied to parliamentary elections; it would not apply to local government and Senedd elections. And equally so, well, of course, what we will have is a register where we already have some divergence, where we have 16-plus on it.
Having an electoral management board, I think, is one of the ways that actually ensures that we have proper oversight and management of that, and obviously the issue of communication. I would hope by 2026—. The UK Government is already moving down the road of automatic registration of 16-plus, so it may be that you will have, in the not-too-distant future, a convergence from a future government. And of course the next elections to which you would apply were going to be in 2029, so they're quite a distance ahead. So, I think there's a lot of time for us to think through, in terms of the messaging, the communication and so on, and no doubt technology continues on that. But it is something, in all the discussions I've had with the electoral registration officers and those involved in electoral systems, that's been one of the issues that we've talked about and we're well aware of, and the need to get as much clarity and certainty when you get to those elections, so people understand fully what the system would be.
With regard to the issue of payments in respect of councillors, bringing them in line, this basically would be a similar mechanism to what is effectively a redundancy payment, isn’t it? Someone is effectively giving up part of their career or part of their job, et cetera. If they lose an election they’re suddenly on the market without a job or without an income, and it’s about just providing the same as we’d expect, I think, for all categories of people and workers and so on, and that is a cushion for that effect. It’s what we have within the Senedd, it’s what they have within Westminster. In fact, Westminster goes far beyond that, to be honest. But it will be up to the remuneration panel to assess and to determine that, and that will be completely independent of Government.

Jane Dodds AS: Firstly, thanks so much to you, Minister, and to your team for the work on this Bill. I’m pleased to see the importance that it places upon accessibility and on making sure voters feel confident when it comes to participating in elections, because I’m sure we would all agree that any reform to our voting system needs to deliver maximum power to voters to enable them to support the candidates of their choice. This people-powered approach stands in stark contrast to the undemocratic voter ID law implemented by the Conservative UK Government, which disenfranchised thousands to allegedly address a problem that is virtually non-existent.
My specific point is: following enactment of this Bill, significant outreach efforts will need to be made to boost public awareness about the differences in the electoral systems, and ensure people understand them. So, could I ask you what support is being given to our hard-working local electoral registration officers to bridge the gap between elections, to ensure that people know what the different requirements are? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. You raise a number of important points. Can I just say to you, and indeed to other Members of the opposition parties, that I’m more than happy to do technical briefings or meetings on this Bill, et cetera, as it develops? It’s something that belongs to us all, that we all have an interest in, and I’m more than happy to do that and to contribute that. You’re right that ultimately the principle—which I’m sure we all agree with—in this is about the empowerment of voters.
In terms of boosting public awareness, I think the establishment of the electoral management board and also then the support in terms of diversity and so on, there are things there that I think are going to come through the work in progress, where not only will we need to ensure that, where there are differences, there’s a greater understanding as to the voting system, but I think the voter platform, the platform for candidates and so on, and to access information about candidates, is something we can really build around in terms of communities, by telling people where that information is, how they can access it, and it gives an opportunity to provide additional information. I think it would be really helpful to have, on something like that, how you actually vote. Because I’ve been asked by people, 'What do we do? I want to go out and vote. What do I actually have to do?' And there are people who don’t know, who’ve never voted and don’t know how to vote.
So, I think there are a lot of opportunities there, but I hope it's something that will come up in scrutiny, and something that is part of an ongoing development as we move gradually towards 2026 and really quite a newer and more modern electoral system.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'd like to extend my support to this Bill, but like Sam Rowlands, I have also mistimed my speech, so I will try and deal with points that have not already been made. The opportunity for secrecy with regard to voters with disabilities is very important. When I was voting in the last Senedd election, the whole polling station could hear how one disabled voter was placing his cross, due to a loud conversation between him and a polling clerk. Unfortunately, Dirprwy Lywydd, I wasn't the beneficiary of that vote.
Like Darren, I also welcome the proposal of the online information service. The issue that I have, of course, is digital disenfranchisement, which we know is a real issue in Wales. How do you deal with people who are disenfranchised digitally, to have the knowledge that they need?
Finally, it is a real shame that, although this Bill deals with council and Senedd elections, I agree with Peredur Owen Griffiths that voter registration is just a sensible move, but it is not extended to Westminster elections. I realise why that is the case—it's because it is a reserved matter. But what discussions have you, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, had with the UK Government to help them follow Wales into a modern era of voter registration? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: The secrecy of votes is fundamental. You are right. One of the things that we have learned as we have gone through this process, of course, is that there are increasing numbers of devices and techniques—many involving technology and so on—that make it easier to vote. Some of them are very expensive. It is not feasible, certainly not at the moment, to have those in every single polling station and so on. But what digitisation does do is that it does provide something that I'm quite interested in, and that's the opportunity, at some stage in the future, where you can have a central point where everything is there. You'll know that you'll only need to go to one place and you will have the accessibility to vote in secret as well. So, it's one of those things that is very much on the radar in terms of thinking about how technology can be applied and be improved and so on.
In terms of digital disenfranchisement, of course, we will be continuing the paper system as well. That will not be going away. But of course, it is one of the challenges, isn't it, of accessibility. For example, if you have a digital platform, it means that only those have accessibility. So, you need to look at things like libraries and other areas where that can be made available and so on.
In terms of engagement with the UK Government, of course, we have a lot of engagement with the UK Government through the inter-ministerial arrangements with the inter-ministerial group, particularly when the 2021 Elections Bill was going through. There it was one where, effectively, we weren't really in agreement because a lot of it was about voter ID and things like that. We didn't have agreement. But those meetings still take place. We have engagement. We do talk about the things that we are doing within Wales, the things that are happening in Scotland, and issues around the UK, in terms of the overall electoral system. So, those conversations are there. At the moment, we are moving in a particular direction because of the reforms that we have, both from Senedd reform and from this electoral reform. That doesn't mean that those other discussions aren't taking place, but we are taking it a stage at a time, in terms of the changes that we wish to make.

Alun Davies AC: I very much welcome your statement, Counsel General, although I have to say to you that, every time you mention electoral reform, you get me over-excited that the Government is going to deliver on the Labour Party policy of the single transferrable vote and deliver real reform to our electoral system.
Can I say, though, how much I agree with your emphasis on increasing and enabling participation and diversity in both our elections and the process? I think that it's absolutely fundamental. The findings of the Electoral Commission on the number of people who are potentially unregistered is terrifying for all of us, and we need to address that as a matter of urgency.
But I also want to address your points on electronic voting. I think that if we are going to drive participation in the future, electronic voting is how we are going to do that. Now, I recognise the point that you made in answer to Peredur Owen Griffiths, that this isn't going to be ready for 2026, and I accept that. But what you can do, of course, is put enabling legislation on the statute book to enable pilots to take place and enable us to start the work of delivering on electronic voting. I think that that would be a very, very useful addition to the Bill.
In closing, another useful addition to the Bill would be the points made by Darren Millar on the remuneration board for Wales. I think that is something that we could begin to look at during this process, because reviewing all of our boards and bodies that review the processes here is important for all of us.

Mick Antoniw AC: Those are all valid points, and I think they're all points that, no doubt, will be raised during the scrutiny process. In terms of electronic voting, of course, this is, really, the enabling legislation, because it's about the digitisation of the electoral register. That is the key platform from which all the other opportunities in terms of electronic voting and use of various diversity and disability support systems come about.
Part of the difficulty we have at the immediate stage, as I've said, is because we have a very fragmented system that we've inherited in terms of elections. The legislation is incredibly outdated. The way electoral management has taken place has been almost on a voluntary and co-operative basis, without a statutory framework. That's why the electoral management board is so important. But I think that is the body that will play an extremely important role in terms of engagement, in terms of things that can be delivered, how they might be delivered, and I am pretty confident that, after the 2026 elections, the technology will have advanced at such a scale that I would have thought, in the next Senedd, moving on to the next stage of electoral modes is going to be something that is almost inevitable.

And finally, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I appreciate your statement today, Counsel General. One strand I'd like to delve into a little bit more, finally, is the Welsh Government's notion of achieving automatic registration onto the electoral roll, when the fact is that not every person wishes to take part in the electoral process, for whatever reason, whether that be a personal view, or, in some cases, for religious beliefs. One example of that is Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't believe in voting and maintain political neutrality. So, what considerations has the Counsel General given to this matter? Are you committed to incorporating personal and religious views into your future decision making? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. Automatic registration is not automatic voting; it doesn't mean that people have any compulsory obligation. There are many things that people are registered for. Being registered with a GP doesn't mean you have to go to your GP. These are choices that people make. But in terms of the issue of what automatic registration would mean for those who don't want to be on the register, what I've said is, at the moment, we actually have a system where you are legally obliged to register; that is the system as it exists at the moment. That's why we get those forms and you're required to fill them in. I think there was a time, I seem to remember, of getting letters saying there was a penalty if you didn't actually return it. But leaving that to one side, what we're saying is that we have the mechanisms, we have the capability of automatically registering, certainly, many, many more people than we do at present. We have the ability to make up the deficit, and we have the advice from the Electoral Commission—the statutory body set up to advise us on these things—that tells us to do it.
As I said to Darren Millar, the process will be that people will be automatically on the register. They will then be given a written notification telling them that they've been included automatically on the register. They will then be given options, and the option may be, on the one hand, that you don't want your name to appear on what is actually now a closed and more confidential register in terms of not being an open register. But there will be people who, for personal safety, personal legal reasons or whatever, may have reasons to want to vote but not to be on that register. That will be accommodated. But they will also have the option of basically saying, 'I don't want to be on the register at all', in which case, they will not be on the register. They will effectively be off the automatic register. It won't change the position, though, that they are then still bound by the UK-wide legislation that exists with regard to electoral registration, but that is not a matter that impacts on us. So, this legislation should give you all the assurances that you've asked for in that respect.

Thank you, Counsel General.

4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change: Update on the Taxi and Private Hire Vehicle (Wales) Bill

Item 4 is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change: update on the taxi and private hire vehicle Bill. I call on the Deputy Minister, Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. To meet the urgent challenge of climate change, we need to make sustainable forms of transport a more attractive choice for people. So we need to join up bus, rail and active travel to make them the easy choice to get around, and a key connector for people to those services are taxis. Private hire vehicles and taxis are often neglected when we think about our public transport system, but they play an important role in joining the system up.Cabs provide connections for the first and last mile of journeys, and give passengers the flexibility that buses and trains can lack in getting people to where they need to go. And as commercial bus routes have been pared back, taxis are a lifeline in many communities, to connect people on a day-to-day basis. It's also important to recognise that they are disproportionately important to people with mobility difficulties.
In March, we published our White Paper on reforming the licensing regime for taxis and private hire vehicles. We received almost 150 responses from drivers, operators and passengers, and I’m grateful to everyone who responded. On 26 September, we published a summary of responses, and I’d like to set out the next steps to deliver our programme for government commitment to modernise the sector.
Our reform programme is about improving the passenger experience, and providing a stable operating environment to make sure taxis are available for people right across Wales when they need them. Wherever in Wales any one of us steps up to a taxi rank, or uses an app to order a private hire vehicle, we should be able to expect a safe and consistent service. Respondents to our consultation expressed broad support for our proposal to introduce national minimum standards for drivers, vehicles and operators. Many throughout the UK are supportive of national consistency, and there have been calls for other governments to follow our lead.
One of the chief complaints from drivers, especially in south-east and north-east Wales, is the issue of drivers from areas with less onerous standards of training and testing unfairly competing with them for passengers. This so-called cross-bordering doesn’t give passengers a consistent level of safety and customer service, and is bad for drivers and operators too.
Many respondents also felt that discretion for local authorities to set additional local standards should be kept to a minimum. We will continue to work with stakeholders to finalise the national standards. As a result, whenever you use a taxi or a private hire vehicle in Wales, you will be assured that the driver, vehicle and operator have been subject to the same requirements, safety checks and training.
Respondents had mixed views about the implications national standards would have for taxis and private hire vehicles licensed in England and working in Wales. We will not stop legitimate journeys that cross the border between Wales and England. We will seek to introduce safeguards to ensure that drivers do not obtain a licence in England to avoid Wales's national standards. And we will continue to monitor the situation and engage stakeholders on both sides of the border as we develop our proposals.
Respondents asked us to be mindful that raising standards will bring some additional costs to the sector. Drivers and operators are not immune from the cost-of-living crisis and the severe economic headwinds facing all sectors. We are not proposing a gold standard but a balanced approach that will raise the bar on best practice and level the playing field for drivers and operators—and I apologise for the mixed metaphor.
The current variation in standards across Wales means that costs will differ from one local authority to another. What is clear, though, is that the areas where costs will be highest will be those where the benefits will be most felt. These are the areas where the service has been working to lower standards until now.
Respondents wanted clear and simple processes for enforcement of standards. And respondents were generally in favour of enabling local authorities to take enforcement action against vehicles and drivers operating out of area. This was particularly true where there is an immediate risk to public safety.
To further improve safety, we are working with the Centre for Digital Public Services to explore options for better information sharing between local authorities and with passengers. We have also listened to drivers' concerns about their safety, and will review requirements such as the wearing of badges and CCTV.
The phenomenon of so-called multi-apping has now become a feature of the taxi market. Drivers may make themselves available for hire on several taxi-booking phone apps at once and then cancel a trip if a better offer comes along. As well as an irritation, this also poses a risk to passenger safety. There were mixed views about the causes of cancellations and no consensus on the actions that would be effective to prevent them. So, we will continue to keep this matter under review as we develop our proposals, and I would welcome the views of Members.
Respondents from the trade were concerned about the costs and practicalities of transitioning to zero-emissions vehicles. We remain fully committed to achieving net zero by 2050, and decarbonising cars will be an important part of that. But I recognise that there are challenges, including the cost of buying an electric vehicle, anxiety about vehicle range and the availability of charging infrastructure. Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales cannot move faster than the rest of the UK on these issues, but we expect the taxi and private hire vehicle trade to transition to electric vehicles in line with the rest of the car market.
So, taken together, I think this is a sensible package of measures that will improve the taxi industry for passengers and drivers, and we will continue to engage with the trade and passengers to ensure our legislation works for the whole of Wales. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar AS: I welcome the Deputy Minister's update on the White Paper, as well as his recognition of the need to modernise the sector. It's clear that passenger safety is essential, and I'm glad that there will be enhanced DBS checks and more safeguarding for adults and children who use taxis and private hire vehicles. However, we also need safety precautions for taxi drivers themselves.The Deputy Minister did touch upon CCTV. We've all heard numerous reports about attacks on Wales's taxi drivers. From Anglesey to Cardiff, there have been taxi drivers who have received serious assaults from passengers under the influence of drink or drugs, and in some cases both. Take, for example, the case of Mr Ali from Cardiff, who in 2021 suffered a life-changing head injury because of a vicious attack by a passenger who was drunk and high on cocaine. Thankfully, his attacker was jailed. There are, in fact, more female drivers now in Wales, so it's also vital that we take their safety and security into consideration.
I see the Deputy Minister's vision for this paper is a licensing system 'fit for a modern Wales', and, I quote, that
'promotes safety for passengers and drivers'.
But I am concerned that the White Paper doesn't go into enough depth and detail about how this is actually going to happen. So, can the Deputy Minister outline what he will do, or at least provide us with some reassurance that he will come forward with more detailed proposals on safety measures for taxi drivers? I'd also like to know what consideration has the Deputy Minister given to the safety of female drivers. Furthermore, the total number of licensed Welsh drivers in 2022 is the lowest in 17 years, so how will the Deputy Minister encourage more drivers into the sector through the White Paper?
Deputy Presiding Officer, I also welcome the White Paper as it will have an emphasis on making the taxi and private hire vehicle fleet zero emission by 2028. I see the consultation document says that one way to accelerate to zero-emission vehicles is to set a deadline for all taxis and PHVs. But what thought has the Deputy Minister given to extra support for taxi and private hire vehicle operators to meet this target and ensure that it's actually affordable, as we all know that eco-friendly cars aren't cheap? Just one local authority in Wales, Newport, has emissions standards in place for taxis and PHVs, so what effort is the Deputy Minister making to ensure that councils are also encouraging zero-emission vehicles in their areas?
I have been helping a constituent in Newport who raised concerns with the current state of wheelchair taxi services in the city. He told me that the lack of pre-bookable wheelchair-accessible taxis is, in fact, causing him significant hindrance and inconvenience. I've also raised this issue directly with the Deputy Minister and Newport City Council, who told me that they have raised these concerns through the White Paper consultation. So, Deputy Minister, please can you explain how the White Paper will help with this problem and problems like these going forward?Eighteen out of 22 local authorities in Wales do not currently have a requirement for disability awareness training for drivers, so please can you tell me how the White Paper will help address this?
Again, I'd also like to outline our support for the principles behind the White Paper. With some tweaks, this certainly can improve the service for both passengers and drivers. Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm sure the Deputy Minister will listen carefully to the consultation responses he's received so that the resulting legislation will be fair, robust and inclusive for all. Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: I'd like to thank Natasha Asghar for the broad support for the approach we're taking and for the constructive way in which she has engaged with it. She's asked mea number of questions and I'll do my best in the time to answer them. On the issue of safety for taxi drivers, as I mentioned, we will still keep an open mind on whether or not CCTV should be an expectation of licensing. I'd initially not included it in the White Paper, because I was concerned of the cost for it at a time of economic difficulty, but I must say the response from the sector is that many drivers would welcome CCTV. Of course, there's nothing stopping them from doing it anyway, and, on the particular question about women drivers, that's something individual drivers may want to do. I'm told the average cost is around £350 for a compliant system. There is an issue of the fact that they would then become data controllers under the data regulations, which may be a disincentive for some drivers, but it may well be the market will evolve, and other services may become available for drivers to take that bureaucratic necessity away. So, we're keeping an open mind on that, and I think there's strong encouragement for taxi drivers to install their own CCTV, whether it should be a condition of regulation, I think we're still considering, and I'd welcome the views of Members on that. It's an open question.
She rightly said as well—the lowest number of drivers in the sector for 17 years. And that's why we hope the overall impact of this package of reform would be to raise standards, to have consistency of standards, to give drivers some security about the operating environment they'd be going into. There are different problems in different parts of Wales. In Cardiff and Newport, the primary concern is around cross-bordering and the ability of drivers to earn a decent living, if taxis licensed to lower standards can come in and cherry-pick fares. In most other parts of Wales, the problem is a lack of drivers, and, certainly, in Llanelli, where I try and get a taxi from time to time, it is very hard to find one. So, I think, we do need to look at this in a slightly different way in different parts of Wales. But I think, overall, the purpose of this reform is to provide greater stability for the sector, which would then create a more attractive environment for drivers to re-enter.
On the issue of the deadline for electric vehicles, it is our intention to use this legislation to give the Welsh Government powers to set a deadline at some point in the future for bringing in an EV mandate. That is not something we have any intention of triggering, certainly within this Senedd term or in the foreseeable future. As I said in my statement, we expect the market across the UK to mature at a similar time, and I don't think there's any advantage for Wales to go ahead of the rest of the UK in trying to use our mandate and powers to accelerate the Welsh market. We need to make sure we've got sufficient charging infrastructure and that the cars are affordable, and that is an evolving picture. So, we're not minded to use these regulations to speed that up beyond its natural market progress. On the final point about—. Obviously, just as a supplementary to that, you asked what we're doing to encourage electric vehicle take-up—we are trialling, with the Cardiff city region and others, charging points just dedicated for electric taxis in key spots to try and make sure they have priority charging when they need it, for example.
Turning to disability and the lack of both cars that are suitable for disabled passengers and the take-up of disability awareness training, that is very much something that we are mindful of and working very closely with the sector on in developing this package of reforms. By having a consistent set of standards across Wales, we can make sure that the training is consistently available, and disability awareness training is something we would very much have in mind that should be available to all parts of Wales and should be a condition of having a licence. And, again, similarly, having cars that are fit for purpose is all part of making sure we have a more mature taxi sector with a greater degree of economic certainty that would allow that investment to be made. So, I hope that answers the questions she posed, and I'd be happy to discuss further if there are other questions.

Delyth Jewell AC: Before I go into the detail about the legislation, I think we must acknowledge the challenges that women and vulnerable travellers face with our current transport system, including taxis. It isn’t merely a question of convenience, in terms of taxi transport, but there are importantquestions in terms of safety and dignity too. All too often we hear reports of harassment and assaults. This is a stain on our society, and we must tackle the problem. And I welcome what is said on this issue.
All too ofte there is a lack of connectivity in our transport system and a lack of accessibility. On the question of access for those with disabilities, it was very much welcomed when, in 2017, it became illegal for a taxi driver to discriminate against wheelchair users. But, since then, 64 per cent of participants in a survey by Disability Wales said that they had experienced problems in trying to use a taxi. Parents reported appalling behaviour by some drivers towards their children with additional needs. So, I would appreciate it if you could tell us, Deputy Minister, how you think that this new legislation will remedy that situation.

Delyth Jewell AC: And you've mentioned about the sustainability of the fleet. It's also key that we ensure that the transition, as has already been said, is both feasible and equitable. So, I'd ask specifically if you could set out any detail on financial mechanisms that are in place to support taxi operators and drivers to transition to those more eco-friendly vehicles, in addition to what's already been said.
When it comes to passenger safety and the training of drivers, I also welcome the news about increased Disclosure and Barring Service checks. I'd ask if there are any other measures that you'd like to highlight that you think might give particularly young women more peace of mind, in future, in getting into taxis. You mentioned in response to Natasha about CCTV and how you're keeping an open mind about that. I think it does merit serious consideration about whether it should be mandatory, because I think that that is one thing—. I certainly know that when I've got into a taxi late at night and I can see that there's a camera, it gives me peace of mind. So, I think that really would merit looking at further.
Minister, you've mentioned about cross-border hiring and how that's a massive issue particularly in Newport and Cardiff—the bigger cities—because there are so many drivers who are licensed elsewhere working in those cities. I think the argument that national standards would make cross-border hiring acceptable—surely, that isn't true, because there's no substitute for local knowledge. If local authorities are still administering licensing, then local knowledge tests must surely be a must, because technology can fail, it does fail and relying only on a sat nav system just isn't acceptable. So, I'm glad to hear that you'll be working to address some of those issues.
And I know that multi-apping, as you've mentioned, as well, is a pressing issue, where self-employed drivers have to be allowed to work for whatever company and however many companies they choose. The major companies, I know, will continue to lobby that drivers working on multiple apps increases the likelihood of cancellations, but if the major companies had better tariff rates and they didn't flood the market with more and more drivers, then maybe drivers wouldn't feel the need to multi-app in the first place. And I know that some councils are looking into restrictions on drivers working with more than one company. If they are allowed to do this, I know that there are concerns that it might prevent new start-ups, or maybe another driver-owned co-operative like the former taxi co-operative, Drive—it would prevent them from entering the market, which is, presumably, what the major companies want to happen. So, I'm glad that you'll be monitoring this. I think that there are lots of different nuances that need to be kept in mind with that.
So, overall, I do agree that this Bill does offer a really important opportunity to address sustainability, women's safety, the need for more integrated transport systems and more accessible transport systems, and I would welcome hearing more detail on some of those points. Diolch yn fawr.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Again, thank you for the broad support of the approach and the constructive way that you've engaged with it.I'll try and answer some of those points. So, I think, on the issue of women's safety particularly, the issue of CCTV is something that I'd be very keen to hear further views on. As always with these things, there is a balance, and likewise with the final questions that Delyth Jewell posed about local knowledge and the issue of cross-bordering. We need to consider what the barriers of entry are here for the trade, because, as Natasha Asghar has already mentioned, we have the lowest number of drivers for 17 years. What we found with disability conditions, for example, if you put on hackney carriages a requirement to take disabled passengers, you often end up with people leaving the taxi element and going into private hire vehicles, where you have fewer levers.
This is a delicate regulatory balance and we need to be careful that we don't unwittingly create unintended consequences. I think, fundamentally, we have still a very arcane system of regulation where we make a distinction between taxis and private hire vehicles when, increasingly, members of the public don't understand that distinction, and the distinction is becoming blurred by technology, because, in theory, a taxi is the only vehicle that can be hailed from a rank, and a private hire vehicle has to be booked. But were you to come across a private hire vehicle sitting there that used an app, you could simply stand next to it, use your app, book a ride, Bob's your uncle, you've got a taxi. But, in effect, it's the same thing as a hackney carriage. So, I think technology is changing the boundaries here of what these quite antiquated distinctions mean.
Also, there's the balance between the consumer and the operator. Obviously, consumers want choice, they want lower prices, operators want to be able to make a decent living and to have a professional set of standards in doing it. Obviously, we are wanting to put in these conditions around training, equalities and vehicles. So, this is not a straightforward arena to try and regulate intelligently in, and we're having to bear in mind all of those things.
I was just going to say, on women's safety, the market is already moving ahead here. So, for example, if you use an Uber app, which is only available in some parts of Wales, one of the things I know women passengers in particular value is the fact you know who the driver is in advance. There's accountability. They know who you are, you each give each other a rating, there's a photograph, there are names, and I think this gives a lot of security, not just to women, but other people as well. I think that is a welcome development in the market. Obviously, that doesn't work in the same way for hackney carriages, and it isn't the same for all apps and all different providers. So, again, the question is to what extent do we try and regulate in Wales differently and try and impose this on a market that is in flux. I think these are delicate judgments.
On the issue of incentives to take up electric vehicles, at the moment my judgment is we have finite resource. We looked at the possibility of a car scrappage scheme for taxi drivers to incentivise them—at the moment, that is not the highest priority for where we can put our resource. I think, as Cardiff Council develops its plans for a clean air zone, a charging area for the city, which is four, five years away, just to reassure colleagues before they get excited—I think the issue of car scrappage schemes is absolutely something that needs to be designed in and particularly for the taxi sector. So, I don't think that's something we want to look at in this current round of reforms, but that is absolutely something we need to be thinking for the next round of reforms.
Just to reassure Delyth Jewell, we are working closely with the disability taskforce transport group on designing our proposals for the legislation, and that is a very constructiveand helpful dialogue. Again, I hope I've answered the questions. If I haven't, I'll be happy to take them up separately.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you for addressing the cross-border issue, which is quite a major subject of discussion in Cardiff. I've no objection for taxis to be bringing people into Cardiff from other areas and then wanting to use the journey home to be covered by another passenger going in that direction, but Cardiff is over-taxied, and part of the reason it's over-taxied is because there's no doubt that some people are getting licenced in an area where it's easier to get a licence, and then they're coming to work in Cardiff. That's not fair to the Cardiff taxi drivers who may be having to work much longer hours in order to earn a decent living, and that has its own safety issues as well.
I just wondered if you could say a bit more about the work with the Centre for Digital Public Services to provide better information sharing between local authorities, because, presumably, the technology exists to track how much time a vehicle was spending in the area where they're licensed and actually providing a service there, as opposed to the proportion of time they may be fishing in Cardiff waters, because we're all aware that Donald Duck and others have signed the petition against 20 mph default in residential areas, and, similarly, you could have people pretending they lived in an area where there were less onerous licensing conditions who may or may not be a fit and proper person.

Lee Waters AC: I'm tempted to say I had that Donald Duck in the back of my cab the other day, but that wouldn't be true. [Laughter.]
So, thank you for those points you raised. So, the issue of cross-bordering I think is a tricky one, and I think there are two primary ways we can deal with this. There are a number of cab drivers who think we should have a cap on the number of taxis who are issued licenses, and that then enables them to earn a good wage, because that gives them economic power, clearly. We balance that against the need for prices to be competitive and for passengers to have a lower price, and certainly the business model of some of these new entry firms, such as Uber and others, has been to lowball the price, and then the driver has to take that pain. So, as I say, it's an emerging picture, and these are quite blunt instruments.
The other option, which I'm more attracted to this stage, is to say, 'Well, let's remove the distinction of a taxi licence issued in Newport, for example, versus a licence issued in Cardiff.' If they have to meet the same standards, then there is no economic incentive for undercutting in a different area, and also, crucially, there's the issue of enforcement. So, if Cardiff local authority can enforce cars, no matter where they've come from, that are in their area, that, I think, allows for a level playing field. At the moment, they can't do that, they can only enforce against Cardiff cabs, which then creates the situation that Jenny Rathbone highlights of Newport cabbies allegedly flooding the Cardiff market on the basis of a cheaper point of entry. So, by equalising the point of entry and equalising the enforcement, I think that is a more equitable way of dealing with the problem that she describes. But there are other views on that, and that is a debate that is still ongoing.
I think the more difficult issue that is emerging is of taxis licensed by authorities in England—I'm aware in particular of Wolverhampton being a centre where taxi firms can be licensed at a lower standard, and who then operate right across the UK, and there are some incidences of that happening in the Valleys in Rhondda Cynon Taf at the moment, and that's something we're becoming aware of and are keen to look into and think through what options we might have to be able to deal with that.
On the issue of the Centre for Digital Public Services, when we were discussing the design of the consultation on the White Paper, one of the proposals was to have a large database where all local authorities could share data, so they could look at registrations, they could look at cancellations and the data collected. I'm very nervous about the creation of large new computer software programmes to create databases, so, rather than jump to an IT solution, I've asked the Centre for Digital Public Services to work with us and the sector to focus on user need, and this is part of the Wales digital strategy, and use the skills of service design to understand what the problem is and to build a solution. That may well be a IT solution; it may not be, it may be something that already exists—that's what's being explored. I think that's a sensible way to approach the problem.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister, and of course, as we know, taxis and private hire vehicles play a significant role in transporting the public from A to B in a timely and sufficient manner. And the transition to electric vehicles would be more welcomed by the industry if the Welsh Government were committed to expanding EV infrastructure, as there are fewer charging points in all of Wales than just two boroughs of London. So, what consideration has the Deputy Minister given to fleet management within taxi companies when transitioning to electric vehicles, as the taxi companies that I’ve spoken to locally in my constituency are anxious about EV, as they have to regularly service vehicles, more so than the average car, and rightly so? But could the Deputy Minister explain how transition can be achieved in a way that isn’t detrimental to the existing fleet they have and the finances used to purchase and maintain such vehicles?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. I think it’s a false comparison between Wales and London, simply on economic grounds. The reason why two boroughs of London have as many EVs as Wales is because they are wealthy and they are able to afford expensive cars, and the market then overserves that geography in providing charging infrastructure, plus they have a better power grid than we have. So, we’re not comparing like with like there. As we’ve said a number of times, the charging infrastructure in Wales is equivalent per head to the charging infrastructure elsewhere in the county. We have fewer electric vehicles. Now, that will change and it will change quickly, as the technology develops, as the price comes down, as the second-hand car market emerges. So, I'm not overly anxious about that. I think that will take care of itself. Obviously, the decision by the UK Government to change the target for the stopping of the sale of petrol and diesel engines doesn't help that take-up, but I notice the market is probably going to ignore that, and a large number of manufacturers have said they're going to stick to the 10-year target regardless.
On the issue of maintenance, I'm not sure he's quite right about that, because my understanding is that electric vehicles need less maintenance than combustion engine cars, because there are so many fewer parts. Apart from brakes and tires, there are very few things to go wrong in an electric car. So, it's generally accepted that the overall lifetime costs of an electric car are lower, but the upfront costs are higher. So, it is usually a good upfront investment, assuming, of course, you can afford and service that upfront investment. But, again, the tools we have to intervene here are limited, and the resource we have is limited. I'm quite keen, in this White Paper, to focus on things where there is a strong consensus for action, bearing in mind that this legislation is not likely to be introduced into the Senedd until the end of this Senedd term, and I think if we can have a consensus-based Bill it's far more likely to pass, rather than fall, as the last one did. The taxi sector needs this legislation, and I think we should look for a minimum viable product rather than trying to go into contested areas, which are going to be more difficult to get through in time.

Sioned Williams AS: I welcome the Government's aim to ensure we have a taxi and private hire vehicle licensing system that improves customer experience and is accessible by all, because I've received reports from constituents who've had really distressing experiences trying to access a taxi, which really points to a dire and urgent need for reform. One constituent from Port Talbot was told that the journey he wanted to make was too short, although he has limited mobility due to a back injury. It's the first and last mile of those journeys you talked about, isn't it, in your statement. He wouldn't have been able to walk the distance back to his home, and the constituent said this wasn't the first time he'd had difficulty in securing a taxi. Another constituent was unable to get into a taxi because the driver refused their guide dog access. From what I've been told, she did try and tell the driver that this was illegal, unless the driver was allergic and therefore an exemption applies, but in the words of the constituent, he didn't care and said, 'Report me, then.' This is unacceptable, isn't it? We've seen in the responses to the consultation that there are numerous concerns around disability discrimination—Leonard Cheshire, for example, stating the need for additional requirements on licensing administrators to ensure effective monitoring and enforcement of national minimum standards. So, how is this new Bill going to ensure this discrimination is tackled once and for all, where other legislation has failed, and how will it enshrine the social model of disability to which the Government is committed? Diolch.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Those are very fair points and concerns we share. I'm pleased to say that, in the consultation, our proposal for disability equality training was widely supported, so I think that will be a central point of the approach that we bring forward, and the example that you gave about access to guide dogs and being told the journey is too short is a very good case study of why that is needed, both to make sure that all drivers understand the impact and also their obligations, but also then having that similar enforcement regime and similar licensing regime, so, if there are issues like that in any part of Wales, they know there is a recourse to action. So, I think, overall, the purpose of this reform—. If it goes the way we hope it will, it will raise the level of the whole sector. And as I say, what I'm quite keen to see is that we start to see taxis then as a genuine part of the public transport ecosystem. And I think, as we move towards bus franchising and having in TfW a single guiding mind who can plan both rail and bus and active travel in an integrated way, we can also then move to have the taxi system work alongside that, so that the whole system thinks in a planned and intelligent way, rather than the slightly random way it can operate at the moment.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. I was pleased to hear you reference the fact that private hire vehicles and taxis are particularly relied upon by people with mobility issues. There is a challenge in Cynon Valley, which, from the contributions of other Members, it appears is replicated across much of Wales, of there being a low number of wheelchair-accessible taxis. From correspondence with Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, I know that at the end of last year they changed the maximum age at which a wheelchair-accessible vehicle could be licensed from five years from date of first registration to seven years, bringing them in line with non-accessible taxis, and also increasing the expiry of the licence from 10 years to 12 years. This policy came about from meetings between the authority and Unite the Union, which represents many local taxi drivers, and the policy, of course, helps to keep more of these accessible vehicles on the road for longer. However, I'm told by taxi drivers that the increased purchase costs associated with wheelchair-accessible taxis remain the biggest barrier to ensuring a suitable supply. So, my question is: what work has Welsh Government done to explore whether there is capacity to provide increased financial support for taxi drivers, so that they can purchase these more expensive vehicles, which are suitable then for all members of the community?

Lee Waters AC: Thanks to Vikki Howells for highlighting those important points. I think it goes to the heart of the tension of what we're trying to do here, because, as Vikki points out, taxis provide a public service, but they are privately run, and they're often run by microbusinesses and individuals working freelance. It is an economically challenging sector, because, as we've discussed, the pressure from the marketplace, particularly from the app-based providers, is to drive down fares, and then the ability of drivers to invest themselves in expensive vehicles that are able to cater for disabled passengers is quite a challenging one.
We're happy to keep looking at the role that the Government has in intervening to help to co-fund some of this, but, as in all of these things, it depends on the availability of public money that we have to invest right across the transport sector. So, I'm grateful that she's raised that matter; I will give it some further thought to see what practical options there might be.

Finally, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to continue with that theme, and hopefully prompt the Minister to think a little more on these matters. There are two issues I would like to raise with the Minister on this statement, which I very much welcome. First of all is the role of taxis in terms of delivering public transport. Now, the Government has failed for five years to deliver transport between my constituency and the Grange hospital. We've heard, and we've debated many times here, Ministers telling us that we need to use public transport and then moving services away from my constituency and not providing public transport to enable people to reach those services. So, it might well be that a taxi service may be a way of filling some of those gaps and providing a realistic travel option for my constituents. I'd be interested to understand how the Government sees those taxi services fitting into that wider model of bus services that we're looking forward to hearing about in the legislation in January.
The second point is very much a point following on from the point that Vikki Phillips makes—Vikki Howells makes; I worked with Vicky Phillips many years ago at National Union of Students—Vikki Howells made about the technology and changing pressures. Many taxi drivers that I've spoken to recently are concerned not just about the cross-border issues that you refer to, but their ability to compete with Uber and other app-based models. It might well be that there is a role for Government in supporting these microbusinesses and freelance drivers, as you've described, with support to enable them to move onto a different technological basis, to enable them to provide the same service and to compete with some of the larger company-based services that we see in the cities, where they're increasingly moving to compete in areas in the Valleys, such as Blaenau Gwent.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think it's a really interesting point. I think the reality is that technology is moving at a pace ahead of regulation, and, as I've already highlighted, the distinction we have in law between Hackney carriages and private-hire vehicles is increasingly unhelpful. Also, the distinction between what is public transport and what is private transport is becoming increasingly blurred. As we know, again, many of these apps aren't available in all parts of Wales, but the ability to now ride share, as they call it, where you share a cab, essentially, is starting to blur the distinction between what a bus service is and what a cab service is. We've tried to harness that through our Fflecsi approach, where we've tried to use some of that technology and that philosophy ourselves to try and bend the definitionof a local bus. But it'll work from the other way around too. Taxis will increasingly start to act like local minibuses. And, as we move to automated cars, that is something that I think will happen with increasing frequency. We're not quite there yet, but it's certainly at a point where we can imagine it happening.
So, I think we need to make sure that we are keeping a flexible approach that allows technology to play a useful role. But technology is a disruptor by its very nature, and that's going to be particularly disruptive to the economic model that many people—we've described the nature of the driving pool—are used to and can compete in. And that's why I think by modernising in this way, by getting TfW's co-ordinating role to work alongside that, we can start to evolve how we think about taxi services, as this technology changes. And I think the points that he makes are something that we need to keep an open mind to. As I say, for this White Paper and this set of reforms, I want to bank what's already solid consensus amongst local authorities and the industry and get that change, and we can then build on that platform.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: Update on Taith—The International Learning Exchange Programme for Wales

Item 5 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: update on Taith, the international learning exchange programme for Wales. I call on the Minister, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to be sharing an update today on our Taith programme and the steps we're taking regarding the governance and a refreshed programme strategy.
Since I last spoke to you about Taith, almost exactly a year ago, well over 1,000 people have taken part in learning exchange trips, with thousands more preparing to go, and these are journeys that can be life changing. I'm sure that many Members will have heard first-hand about the transformative experiences that young people across Wales have had, thanks to Taith.
In many ways, the numbers speak for themselves. Since the programme launched in February of last year, funding has been awarded to 142 projects, and these involve thousands of learners and more than 90 countries, from Spain and Sweden to Singapore and South Korea. One hundred and sixty-three organisations have been involved, with the majority of schools coming from the most deprived areas. And the opportunities are not limited to those in mainstream education. The most recent pathway 1 call saw two pupil referral units securing funding.
Taith, at heart, is about high-impact, transformative opportunities for learners across Wales to take part in an international learning exchange. As these opportunities can be life changing, the real story is told in the detail and the individuals who have taken part. I want to highlight, therefore, just a couple of projects from the first year of Taith for Members to get a sense of the tangible impact that this programme is having.
In April, GISDA, a Caernarfon-based charity working with homeless and vulnerable young people, took a group to Finland for a week of cultural and educational exchange. The trip had a huge impact on the well-being of the young people, many of whom would never have had this kind of experience without Taith. I'd like to share with you an extract from a letter that one of the young people wrote to GISDA when they got home:

Jeremy Miles AC: 'This trip has wholeheartedly changed my life. I've evolved and come out of this experience a better man. It's given me a new perspective and has changed my outlook on life. And how lucky I am to have a second chance at life, I've felt true happiness for the first time in a long time—years.'

Jeremy Miles AC: Receiving messages like this from Taith participants is not unusual. I recently attended a celebration event that brought together pupils from Wales and Lesotho at the end of their exchange project. As well as hearing about the formal learning aspects of the trips, which are a core part of every Taith project, listening to how they'd grown in confidence and seeing the joy in their interactions with one another was inspiring to me. Examples like these are the real successes of Taith, and there are many more inspiring stories available on the Taith website itself.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: As well as benefiting the individual, Taith, importantly, facilitates educational innovation and supports wider Welsh Government objectives through the pathway 2 partnerships and strategic collaboration funding stream, which will reopen for applications on Thursday. Pembrokeshire youth service, for example, are working with their Canadian partner to enhance the impact of the school health research network’s reporting system, and a group of schools in Swansea are partnering with schools in Zambia to create lesson plans around the sustainable development goals, and develop a construction manual for plastic bottle shelters. Had we not taken decisive action in announcing Taith in March 2021, this activity would not be taking place, as the final Erasmus+projects came to an end this year.
Now, I'm well aware, as I know Members will be, that in the current climate, it is essential that all of our resources are used well. Difficult decisions are being made across the Government, but it's also important not to lose perspective of the value of these kinds of opportunities for young people, which, as we've heard, can be truly life-changing.
Before I close, I want to update Members on how we are continuing to work to improve Taith and ensure that it's good value for money. Taith is an investment in our young people’s futures, and alongside ongoing policy reviews, we are focusing on two things in particular: governance and strategy. Let me start with governance. We've always been clear that Taith is a programme unique to Wales, and built with the needs of our nation at the forefront. An important part of that is developing and operating the programme in partnership with the education sector across Wales, and I am grateful to organisations and individuals across the sector for their support so far.
But now that the programme is in full operation, Taith is widening its engagement. A new, open stakeholder engagement structure is being implemented to ensure that anyone with an interest in Taith can input into its development, and I welcome this. And membership of the advisory board is being reviewed now that we have transitioned from establishment to delivery of the programme. Applications for board members are open, and I'd encourage Members to promote these positions among their networks, both in Wales and internationally.
To close, I’ll turn to strategy and the future of Taith. I’m delighted to announce that, next week, Taith will be publishing a new strategy, and the refreshed strategy will outline three core objectives: to ensure those exchanges provide the greatest impact; fund high-quality learning projects; and support educational innovation in Wales. This will enable a renewed focus on ensuring that Taith continues to do what it does best: provide high-impact, accessible opportunities for those who can benefit from them the most, because at its heart, Llywydd, Taith is about learners. It’s about transformative opportunities for young people to build confidence, broaden their horizons, and grow their aspirations, crucially. The impact on those from under-represented groups is often the highest, and the change we see in them sometimes the greatest.

Jeremy Miles AC: I hope therefore it is clear to you all from the stories I’ve mentioned today that this programme is having a profound impact on individuals. These journeys change lives, and I look forward to updating the Chamber once again and telling you more of these stories when I do.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement today, Minister. There is no doubt that learning exchange programmes open eyes and change lives. As you say in your statement, though, if I may refer to that, pathway 2 will be reopening for its 2023 call this week. As we all know, this will be focusing on partnerships and strategic collaboration with organisations from schools, youth, adult education, further education and training sectors, which I do applaud. However, the UK Government has already done this with the Turing scheme and provided £110 million for the first year, and around £100 million a year after that was provided to enable 35,000 learners from across the UK, particularly those from deprived backgrounds, to study abroad with some of the best universities in the world, not just within the EU, as well as allowing them to take work placements. So, I ask you: do you still believe, at a time when you’re cutting the education budget, that the right approach was to plough more money into reinventing the wheel, so to speak, in such a costly and a different way, just for the sake of it? Surely a better way would have been to adopt the UK scheme and perhaps add to it or adapt it slightly.
Secondly, I accept that the Taith scheme funding will prioritise mobility opportunities for Welsh learners to travel outside of Wales. However, funding for inward mobilities, for participants to come into Wales, will comprise 30 per cent of each project’s allocated budget for outward mobilities. So, do you not see an issue with that, and how this could possibly keep learners from coming to Wales? How are you monitoring any drop in numbers?
Finally, Minister, we all know that the Turing scheme supported a record 19,952 students from disadvantaged backgrounds to study and work around the world during the 2022-23 academic year. That’s 52 per cent of the placements for disadvantaged students, up from 48 per cent in 2021. So, Minister, do you have the Taith stats to hand on the scheme, regarding disadvantaged students, to share with the Chamber today? And are we seeing an increase in placements for disadvantaged students like the Turing scheme, and, if not, why not? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for those questions. I'm not seeking to find opportunities to compare the scheme with the Turing scheme, because I think they're both just fundamentally different things, and I think the scheme, if you are to draw comparisons, that this is most like is probably Erasmus+. And the reason for that is just the level of ambition and the scale that Taith delivers.
I think, by the way, I should be clear: I hope organisations in Wales will continue to benefit from Turing alongside their engagement with Taith, but they are different schemes. As the Member said, Turing doesn’t, for example, fund inward mobility, and I think at the very heart of the idea of international learning exchanges, if you are to do it effectively, is that idea of reciprocity. You have got to make sure that programmes are able to encourage movement in both directions. Anything else is obviously helpful, but I think it misses that level of ambition and learning that we can have out of the system. It’s really important that we can benefit in our education system from this significant investment. So, I hope that organisations will be able to take advantage of both. My personal view is that anyone comparing the two programmes would conclude that the money that the UK Government has allocated to Turing would be better spent in Wales by the Welsh Government. That’s just how devolution works, and education is devolved. But that ship, I think, sadly has sailed.
She made an important point about the focus on making sure that Taith—and I’m sure the UK Government would describe similar ambitions for Turing—reached those young people who otherwise wouldn’t have opportunities to be able to travel internationally, and the focus of Taith is very much on making sure that those people benefit from the scheme. Just to correct the point the Member made, there has been no data at all published on Turing’s actual performance in relation to disadvantaged participation. The Department for Education haven’t published anything at all on it, despite those projects having started a year earlier than Taith. The data that the Member is quoting from is the projected planned target participation figures, but there is no evidence whatsoever that any of them have been met.
In Wales we have—. For example, in pathway 1 in 2022, 18 schools applied directly; 66 six per cent of those were in the most deprived areas in Wales. And in pathway 1 this year, 30 schools applied directly; 57 per cent of those were in the most deprived areas in Wales. I think the scale of the two projects is best illustrated by the extent to which they have been able to reach schools, and Turing has had three applications from schools in its time, and Taith, I’m pleased to say, has this year had 36 applications from schools. I think that is a thing that we can all welcome.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, and I'm pleased you've taken the opportunity to remind us all why you did have to establish Taith, because this is one of the worst impacts for young people in terms of losing the Erasmus+ programme, something that enhanced the lives of so many young people.
Clearly,the numbers have had to change in terms of the funding available here in Wales. I think that when this was announced, you were trying to make up for the loss of Erasmus+, but I would be delighted if the UK had remained part of Erasmus+ and Taith didn’t need to exist, and we could therefore focus on how we could encourage more young people to take up these important opportunities, as you’ve mentioned.
I’ve been lucky enough to meet some of the young people who were on the final Erasmus+ schemes, but also those who have travelled with Taith. And it is transformational. It can transform lives. But just as important in enhancing young people’s lives are the opportunities to welcome others here to Wales, and for us to have that kind of exchange.
One of the things that many colleges told me as a concern was that lack of opportunity to reciprocate and to welcome people back, and what would the impact be of people wanting to form partnerships if the opportunities weren’t available, and that we wouldn’t know the real situation until we see how things develop. So, I’d be interested to hear about that.
One of the things that’s also been raised with me is something that did exist as a problem with the Erasmus+ programme, namely the fact that many young people in Wales don’t have passports. The costs of passports can be a barrier to people participating in the first instance. Whitehead-Ross Education, which supported people on Erasmus+, has raised this as one of the main barriers that they identified that prevented young people from considering participation in Taith, or previously Erasmus+. So, can I ask you whether there are any opportunities to support people with the cost of passports? Clearly, there will be more paperwork connected with going to Europe as the rules changed.
May I also ask whether it’s still your intention, if there is a change of Government following the next general election, to have discussions on the future of Erasmus+ or what we can do to ensure more connections with Europe? We’ve also heard that the Welsh Government budget is under huge pressure and I’d like to know what that will mean in terms of the future of this programme, or how you can extend this programme.
But also, in looking to the future, I think we’re all agreed that it is important that we provide these opportunities for our young people. This is one of the main reasons that many young people were very angry at the decision taken on Brexit. So, we’re trying to put that right and to ensure a future here. But I do think it’s important that we continue to have strong links with Europe and secure all possible opportunities. So, I welcome this, but what can we do further too?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Heledd Fychan for those important questions. It’s certainly true, isn’t it, that in any time of financial austerity—it’s not a situation of austerity that we’ve chosen, but it is the situation in front of us—one of the things that falls off the list of things that we do is those international connections and links. But we see how important they are.
They bring benefits to Wales. They’re not additional things; they’re at the heart of what we want to do. They’re part of that international network between nations and countries that can lead to prosperity and provide opportunities beyond the scheme itself. We’ve seen this for many years with Erasmus+ and Erasmus before that. That’s why it was such a shame that the Westminster Government, as part of Brexit, had decided not to ensure that the young people of the UK had an opportunity to continue with that scheme. That was a political choice, at the end of the day.
In terms of the question of rejoining Erasmus+, I would very much like it if that were possible. As the Member said, Taith is different and, in some ways, it’s better than Erasmus+. It’s less bureaucratic, it’s been able to reach adult education, it’s reached more schools than Erasmus ever could, because Erasmus was far more complex, so there were far more barriers in the way. So, there are advantages to Taith. But if there were an opportunity to rejoin Erasmus, I’d certainly be in favour of doing that. What’s unfortunate is that the European Commission has said that that isn’t possible for Wales to do alone. So, that’s a wider decision, unfortunately.
In terms of the financial question and financial pressures, it’s a fair enough question. We’ve been thinking about how we can respond to that within the Government. The scheme has been planned since 2021, over a number of years, so that’s been invested already, if you will. We’ve looked to extend the scheme so that the funding is spent over more years, so, it's been extended by a further year. That has had a positive impact in terms of the financial cost, but also, as it happens, it has reflected the demand more accurately, too. So that has been very positive.
The Member made important points about passports and the other barriers that prevent, practically, those from deprived backgrounds from becoming involved with this. I've provided some of the figures in terms of the applications and suggestions. But we've also appointed the Welsh Centre for International Affairs and Diverse Cymru, and their role is to ensure that we tackle these barriers, and to work with organisations to deal with those practical issues that could become barriers otherwise.

Alun Davies AC: Erasmus, of course, is a Welsh invention of that great Welsh European, Hywel Ceri Jones, and I think we should always pay tribute to the work he did in driving that forward. In Brussels a few weeks ago, Erasmus was described to us as a living bridge, and I thought that that was a great way of describing how young people can have the opportunities to live with and to experience life in different parts of the European continent. And it's one of the most grotesque parts of the Brexit tragedy that young people in the United Kingdom do not share the same benefits as young people right across the rest of Europe.
But, of course, when we say 'young people', what we mean is the people we represent; the sons and daughters of the rich and wealthy and the privileged will continue to travel as they choose, because they've got the wealth to sustain that. And this is a political decision, but a political decision that's collapsing, of course, because the little Englander Government that we've got in Westminster, driven by prejudice rather than knowledge and experience, has not survived a clash with reality. We've seen the collapse of UK policy on a number of different issues—we saw that from the Windsor framework through to issues around trade and goods. So, they've not survived this clash with reality, and it is important, I think, Minister, that we continue to put pressure on the UK Government—and looking forward to a change of government—to ensure that we do rejoin Erasmus+ and provide those opportunities for all of us. In doing so, my question to you is this: how will Taith develop to complement and to grow with Erasmus+, when we rejoin Erasmus+, to ensure that the breadth of young people who I represent in Blaenau Gwent have the same opportunity as I had when I was a teenager to travel across this great continent of ours and become a Welsh European?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Alun Davies, for those questions. I think, at its heart, Taith is much more than an education exchange programme, a technical programme; it's a question of values and vision, I think. There is a reason why, when he goes and when I go to Brussels and elsewhere and talk about Taith, it is received so warmly. It isn't actually simply because of the incredible opportunities it provides, it's because it says something about the kind of country that we want to be, and that is a country that is outward looking, not inward looking, and wants to make sure that those opportunities that he talked about so eloquently are available to everybody.
I think, actually, as I was starting to allude to Heledd Fychan, there are some ways in which Taith is a more accessible programme than Erasmus, partly because of the scale at which we're operating it. We are the Welsh Government and it is a European-wide project, so it operates in a different way. And I think, actually, that flexibility and that nimbleness is a real advantage and could be an advantage in the future if we are able to return to Erasmus. And I think the two practical outcomes of that are just the sheer success of Taith in attracting applications from schools, which is something that was a struggle for Erasmus, and also from adult education as well, which is completely new ground. And I think the enthusiasm that we've seen from that sector, and the success, actually, as well, is a real testament to the particular value and advantages that Taith can bring.
Can I just close my answer to this by also paying tribute to Hywel Ceri Jones? I was able to meet with him very regularly when I chaired the European advisory group in my previous role. He was a very important and valued member of that. We spoke a lot about what this would mean for young people in Wales in particular, and it felt particularly tragic given the important roles that Wales, through Hywel, played in the genesis of Erasmus itself.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, as my colleague Alun Davies has just mentioned, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee was out in Brussels recently, and Taithfeatured regularly in our discussions with EU colleagues. And, indeed, it was on the agenda too for some very helpful discussions with officials in the UK mission. I think it's fair to say that there was real appreciation from European colleagues of the efforts from the Welsh Government, albeit with stretched resources, to target an effective Wales replacement when we lost out through losing our place in the Erasmus+ scheme. I have to say as well there was not much love on display for the Turing scheme because of its limitations.
But one of the criticisms of the Erasmus scheme from some in the UK Government was it wasn't sufficiently two-way, with a disproportionate flow of students into the UK, rather than the other way. I would say respectfully that this ignores the benefits of the relationships—social, cultural and economic—made by those alumni of Erasmus who came here from other shores, who returned home having made those links, and indeed some of whom stick here and stay and build jobs and employment for others. So, you've already been asked, Minister, what would happen if there was a change of heart and perhaps a change of Government that sought to bring us back into Erasmus+. Alternatively, can I ask you should a future UK Labour Government just learn from Wales and bring forward its own Taith for England? Taith Lloegr has a very nice ring to it, and we could claim the intellectual property rights once again.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: I very much like that idea. I think that would mean that Wales, once again, played an important part in the creation of that international exchange network. I think he's absolutely right, though, to reflect on, as Alun Davies did, his experience of being in Brussels, but also elsewhere. My experience of it is that Taith is also a calling card for other discussions. It's a signal, as he was saying, of our politics, of our values, but it's also an opportunity to talk about lots of other incredibly important ways in which those international relationships can benefit Wales. I think that the point that Huw Irranca-Davies makes about the reciprocity is essential to this, really. It's a shame that Turing doesn't have this principle at its heart.
But what we are doing here, in a sense, is creating a kind of network of partnerships—yes, between organisations, but also on an individual level. There are people who will have benefited from spending time in Wales through Taith who will take that back with them to their countries. We know that these relationships can create opportunities for the Welsh economy, for Welsh education and in other ways as well. That, for me, at the end of the day, is an important part of why this investment is so important.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Closure of UK Windows & Doors Group

Item 6 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Economy on the closure of UK Windows & Doors Group. I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Members will be aware of the deeply concerning news that jobs are at risk and are likely to be made redundant at the UK Windows & Doors RCT site in Treorchy. This is a hugely important employer to the local economy. I recognise that generations of families in Treorchy and the surrounding area have contributed to the business’s success for many years. UK Windows & Doors is the largest single employer of its kind in the Rhondda valley, and this dedicated workforce will now be feeling a deep sense of concern and worry following such a sudden announcement made in the run-up to Christmas.
My department has been urgently seeking clarity from the business, and I recognise that the lack of information we have seen made available to the workforce has caused real anxiety. The company was engaging with my department in recent months through the summer, as indeed with the local authority. The nature of those discussions was positive, looking at future expansion. It is therefore a surprise that the position has deteriorated so rapidly. In recent weeks, the company has not been responsive when attempts have been made to make contact and this has led toan even greater sense of uncertainty for all partners.
I met, at her request, with the constituency Member for the Rhondda yesterday, and we'll be engaging further with trade union representatives in the coming days. I understand Community trade union are the recognised union on site. I sent a letter to the company yesterday, and now urge the business and the administrators to work with my team in the Welsh Governmentto ensure that the best possible outcome can be achieved in what will be a tight timescale.
Dirprwy Lywydd, my immediate focus is on exploring whether the business can continue as a going concern. That could range from securing new owners or wider options such as management or worker buy-outs. We cannot at this stage be certain about the financial position of the company on the basis of media statements. That’s why it’s crucial that all parties do come together to explore the potential of the businessthat does exist. While working through this task, we will ensure that our employability team is ready to provide rapid and effective support for the workforce.
Where businesses fail, we do have a bespoke package of support for workers affected, with free training and help with the costs of finding new work, which can include childcare and transport. Our approach in bringing together unions, local authorities and the Department for Work and Pensions and others is also crucial in helping workers to find new jobs quickly. In cases like Tillery Valley Foods, that support has helped the great majority of the workforce find new employment relatively quickly, while a smaller number continue to be supported by the ReAct+ programme.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to make it clear that we recognise the scale of the jobs at threat due to this announcement and the impact it is already having on the local community. I am committed to working with all partners to bring our collective resources and support to bear on this matter and I will of course continue to update Members on the progress that we make.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? I share the Minister’s concern regarding this announcement, and I can’t imagine what it must be like for those employed by the company and their families. My understanding is that a decline in sales has meant that the business had become financially unsustainable and sadly, as a result, almost 500 jobs could now be lost at their sites in Treorchy, Llwynypia, Williamstown and Taff’s Well. This is a significant number of jobs in Rhondda Cynon Taf, and so it’s vital at the Welsh Government and the local authority are working together so that the workers are being supported and have access to sufficient job and training opportunities in the area.
Some reports have suggested that staff were told their jobs would be lost in a conference call, and I’m sure the Minister will agree with me that that is simply not acceptable. I agree with the Minister that the lack of information and communication to workers has caused real anxiety, and I’m disappointed to hear that the company was not responsive when the Welsh Government attempted to make contact, and so I hope in the first instance, the Welsh Government’s priority is to find out exactly what the situation is, and I hope the Minister will confirm that attempts to engage with the company are indeed ongoing.
Today’s statement confirms that the Welsh Government is exploring whether the business can continue, and so perhaps he can tell us what support has been offered to help the business find potential buyers, particularly if attempts to engage with the company aren’t being received. Of course, this news may have an effect on the company’s supply chain, which could include many businesses across Rhondda Cynon Taf and the Valleys, and so can the Minister tell us what assessment has been made about the impact of a potential closure, so that we can understand and hopefully mitigate the impact of this on other businesses in the area?
Today’s statement confirms that the employability team is ready to provide rapid, effective support for the workforce. With so many jobs at risk, it’s vital that there is support and advice available to anyone affected by the company’s threat of closure. Therefore, perhaps the Minister can tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to proactively support the workforce at this time, and perhaps he could also update us on the discussions he’s had with trade unions about their role in supporting workers as much as possible at this time.
Today’s statement tells us that the Welsh Government provides a bespoke package of support for any workers that lose their jobs, and that includes free training and help with the costs of finding new work, including childcare and transport. That support is of course very welcome, and I hope that employment and training opportunities will be made as accessible as possible to the workforce. The leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council has said that the local authority and Welsh Government will be working on a plan to provide as much support as possible to those affected. Therefore, perhaps in response to those comments, the Minister could provide us with an update on that plan and what it looks like, so we can better understand what exactly the Welsh Government and the local authority is doing to support those who work for the company.
And finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank the Minister for his statement today, and offer any support I can to the Welsh Government on behalf of my party? Should these jobs be lost to the area, it will be devastating, and so I hope that no stone is unturned in supporting both the company and its workers at this very difficult time.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and the questions. I think it's a contested as opposed to an accepted point that the future prospects for the business are entirely what has led to the rapid change in prospects. There was an order book with work attached to it, and actually within this you always need to try to understand how the business has been run, what that looks like, what that then means for workers, and that also goes into the points around the skills of the workforce and how other employers may be interested, potentially, in recruiting some of those workers. So, I don't think the future is entirely bleak, but it's hugely uncertain, and that's the difficulty in making the statement today. There is real uncertainty about what will happen in the very immediate future. That includes the options that, as I say, are always going to be my primary starting point: can we find an alternative buyer to secure all or the great majority of the jobs? Are alternative buyer options possible? That does require us to understand and have direct contact from the administrators. Now, they're not required to respond to us. I hope they do, because I think it would actually provide better value for people who potentially have a call on resources from the company having gone into administration. We did have some useful contact, for example, with the administrators at Tillery Valley Foods in Blaenau Gwent. That meant that we also were able to explore other options, including potential alternative buyers. That didn't transpire in that case. We also looked seriously at management buy-out, but again there were challenges. So, we have properly looked at alternatives when there have been similar events for large-scale employers that have gone into administration.
I agree with the Member about the incredibly poor manner in which the employer behaved in its communications with the workforce. They know very well who the local authority are and who the Welsh Government are because they've spoken to us through the summer. So, it's a choice by the people at the very top of the organisation, and indeed local managers were in no clearer a position than the rest of the workforce. So, this is a good example of how not to do this. Even if businesses do come to an end, there are ongoing responsibilities to that workforce, and your point around other resources—. We will need to have a conversation around what's happening, but also to think about the community impact, especially on the health service. Large-scale unemployment events like this don't necessarily just produce temporary anxiety. There can be real impacts on the wider workforce and community.
On your point around the local authority, I am of course very keen to work with the local authority, and am very much in line with the statement made by the leader of the local authority, Andrew Morgan, and of course the two constituency Members, Buffy Williams and Chris Bryant, on wanting to work together. That is how we've worked together in other instances, not just with Tillery Valley Foods in Blaenau Gwent, but of course in Monmouthshire where we worked with both constituency Members and the DWP and the local authority, so across political members, to try to find the right outcome for that workforce. And indeed, if that employer goes, there are still the sites to consider as well, where, actually, the positive news is there is a demand for industrial land for activity to take place on.
I will continue to keep Members updated on what the future plan will look like. We will look forward to working with all agencies in doing that. But as I say, in the past we have worked with the local authority, what is left of the business and the administrators, and the Department for Work and Pensions, to try to get the right outcome, and I'll certainly carry on my conversation with Community, who are the recognised trade union across all the sites in question.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for this statement. It is devastating news for the workers, their families and also the local economy of Rhondda Cynon Taf. I would like to express my personal and our party's solidarity with the workers affected with the four sites, of course—Treorchy, Williamstown, Llwynypia and Taff's Well. Four hundred and ninety-six workers, each with their own personal circumstances and each with their own story. We know of many members of staff there who've worked, say, for Griffin Windows for 20 years or more. Some people have multiple family members. I'm sure we've all seen the BBC reporting the case of Kiera Powell and Lloyd Yeates, who both work for the company and have a baby due in eight weeks. The concern there is in terms of what will happen in terms of both maternity pay but also paternity pay and leave, because obviously even if Lloyd is successful in finding alternative employment, he won't have the same rights because he won't have been in that job for long. So, there are those wider implications, and at a time when you should be awaiting that arrival of a new baby and excited, to have that concern is something that's deeply distressing, and I think thinking about those personal stories is really important. We also all know that we can't afford to lose 500 jobs in Rhondda Cynon Taf. This is an area where we desperately need further investment, further opportunities, and I was pleased to see that you are emphasising that you would like to see these jobs retained. I think that has to be our priority, how we can save these jobs, and look at all models possible. I wonder—. You've mentioned that, perhaps, it is too early for you to give further details, but I would echo Paul Davies's point—in terms of knowing the further details of the plan that's been mentioned, it's something that, perhaps, could be expanded upon, perhaps even in a written statement, because I'd very much welcome that.
I also welcome the fact that Paul Davies mentioned his party's support in terms of ensuring that we prioritise that. I would like to also reinforce our commitment as a party to working cross party, because, obviously, there are wider implications. It's not just one constituency affected here; there are obviously employees from wider and beyond, and these are two constituencies affected. So, in terms of cross-party working, whatever I can do personally, as a regional Member of the Senedd, but also what my party can do, to put the support in place, but also to look at all different models, is something that we would definitely welcome.
I also want to reinforce some of the comments made in terms of how workers were treated. The rumours over the weekend were incredibly distressing for all. I was inundated with messages—I know other elected Members were—of people having been told that they were due to come to a site by 2 o'clock, and then this was changed to a conference call where they were not allowed to ask any questions. They weren't allowed to unmute themselves, otherwise they couldn't remain on that call. That is not a way to treat people who have given a long service to a company and who are very, very committed employees. And I would urge any—any—employers to reconsider any such tactic; it is not acceptable, because even when people are given the worst possible news, there are ways to do that in a way that's much better. I do very much regret that the company did not engage and keep the communication channels going with Welsh Government and the local council so that that support package could have been made clear, and these options looked at before that news was dealt. So, I would like to very much condemn that approach by the company.
Back in June Citizens Advice did share with us their decarbonisation dashboard, which looked at the potential of retrofitting homes and also emphasised the programme for government for this Senedd term, and obviously the 20,000 new low-carbon social homes for rent. Well, this is a company specialising in windows and doors—new homes require those. We know, with retrofitting as well, that windows and doors are important there. So, can I ask what consideration has been given, how we can create jobs that are linked to decarbonisation, and ensure local supply chains are used, and if that's a potential here? Because as we saw from that research by Citizens Advice, it not only creates jobs—in South Wales Central alone, 10,000 or more jobs could be created through this—but also, investing in homes in South Wales Central alone could save the NHS between £25 million and £33 million annually in terms of ensuring that these homes are warm and people aren't impacted by ill health. So, can we see a co-ordinated approach to first of all prioritise that these jobs are saved, but also to look at further opportunities so that we can ensure there are employment opportunities in Rhondda Cynon Taf?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for all the comments and questions. I certainly recognise the point made at the start that behind the figures, and the scale of them, there are human stories for each one of those figures, and that, of course, is what motivates us to want to do the right thing and why the priority is to try to save the jobs, and if we can't save the jobs in their current iteration, to look at alternatives, and then, if we do need to place people or to help people to find alternative work, that we do that. As I say, the reality is, most workers in Tillery Valley Foods were helped into alternative employment relatively quickly. What we need to do is to see the different skills and opportunities that may exist at this site if we're not able to maintain the business as a going concern in one form or another. The challenge, though, is it does rely on the administrators and the way that they approach a conversation with us and our partners, because we're not in control of the business in the Welsh Government or the site itself. And it reiterates a message that the Welsh Government can't help businesses that don't ask us for help or that avoid us when we seek to talk to them about the potential help that might be made available. And as I say, what's particularly disappointing is, through the summer, we have had conversations about a relatively buoyant outlook for the business at that time. And then, when things have got difficult, the shutters have come down.
It's also, therefore, important as well that none of us in this Chamber will be on seat to exploit the anxiety of anxious workers and communities. We need to be calm and forthright at the same time. I don't think those two things are impossible to do, but that requires partners to work together—the trade union partner, the council, the DWP and the Welsh Government—to want to find a way forward and to present an united opportunity to do the best possible with administrators and, indeed, to recognise that is the best way forward for the affected communities themselves.
On your point around other opportunities, actually, that is very much what we're looking to pursue through the optimised retrofit programme. It's led by climate change around improving the quality of housing, exactly for the areas that you have pointed out. It builds on what we've seen, for example, in previous Arbed initiatives as well. When you improve the energy efficiency of homes, you almost always have a direct impact on health outcomes for those people and you almost always make a difference in both decarbonisation and lowering household bills. We are very committed to doing that and in recognising the economic benefit that could and should be delivered. And I've seen myself, with the optimised retrofit programme, that we have made deliberate choices in the way that's been designed and delivered, and there is a real return within local economies for who is doing the work, as well as the value of the work once it's completed.
I'm very much aware of the potential opportunities if we're able to maintain some or all of the nature of the current business. It already, for example, provides work that goes in to some home improvements in the private sector, but also in some of the new builds, and a range of those are, of course, in areas where there are social homes being built too. So, I think there's a need for some optimism around what might happen with the skills of the workforce and the type of business that it is, as well as some realism about how, now the administrators are there, this is a very brief period of time, but still an opportunity to try to maintain the jobs that are there.

Buffy Williams AS: I'd like to thank the Minister for his statement. Yesterday's announcement came as a total shock for everyone involved. A huge proportion of over 500 employees made redundant reside in Rhondda, so this has come as a huge blow for our communities. As is usually the case with these industries, many of the workers are family members over multiple generations, many are couples and many had worked there all their working lives. With very little alternative employment available locally, my office has received anxious messages from staff saying this craft is all they know. Given this, and following conversations with the administrators, Teneo, the ambition, first and foremost, is to find other potential buyers for the important facilities, to try and retain as many of these jobs as possible.
We need to also approach similar companies within Rhondda or within the locality to gauge if there's any possibility of expansion. Would the Minister be willing to work with Teneo to find potential buyers? And what advice, if any, could he give to local companies who may want to expand, following the announcement?
While we try to find a successor, Chris Bryant MP will be writing to the DWP seeking urgent support. I know the Welsh Government's ReAct+ scheme is ready and waiting, if workers need support seeking new employment. And the leader of RCT council, Councillor Andrew Morgan, is in the process of organising a jobs fair specifically for redundant workers. Is the Minister able to support these local efforts, and are there any specific opportunities that Welsh Government could provide to help retain and upskill workers who may have to work in different industries?
The announcement couldn't have come at a worse time. There are real fears among workers about paying for food and energy bills. I understand the discretionary assistance fund is available, and my office staff will be directing residents to the 'Claim what's yours' website and phone lines. But long-term employment is the only solution here, and support the Welsh Government can provide will be met with open arms.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and the questions, and also the opportunity to meet with you yesterday to hear first-hand about the volume of calls being made to your office and to your staff and, again, the real fog of uncertainty that existed throughout yesterday until an eventual announcement was made. And it really was disgraceful to have people texted to say to not to come into work, and the awful position that local managers were put in, often managers who live in the same communities as well and weren't certain. As I said, it's exactly what should not happen. Even with the business in trouble, there's still a duty to treat your workers with decency and to recognise the service that they've already provided to that business.
I also recognise this is the biggest employer in the Rhondda, so it will have a much bigger impact than a single employer or a handful of individuals. There are hundreds of people directly affected. So, the priority is how do we retain jobs, and that does involve the conversations with the administrator. My officials are in touch with the administrator to try to have those conversations on what might be possible, and the different levers that might be available. And we look for a positive and constructive response from the administrator.
When it comes to other businesses in the area, if they're interested in the potential to expand and to do more, then Business Wales are a first port of call or, alternatively, they may have established relationships with the council. The council's economic development department itself could be helpful in this as well. And one of the things I'd say to any of those businesses is: whichever door you go through, we want to make sure that the relationship between the council and Business Wales is easy so you don't need to try to understand which door you need to go through. We need to be joined up in the sort of response we need to provide. Within that, I think that the organising of a jobs fair—it's exactly what happened, again, in Blaenau Gwent. The council were involved with the DWP and the Government, and all of us acting together added to what was there. And it meant that there was a single message for the workforce and the community about where to find that help and support and to look at alternative ways of finding employment. I'm optimistic we can do the same in this instance.
It was also an opportunity to make sure people were properly aware of what ReAct+ can offer, because, for those people looking for alternative skills, alternative jobs, the training and support we provide is available. For example, I know there are still, I think, 17 people who used to be employed at Tillery Valley Foods who are still accessing that support. There's still skills support going on to help them to find alternative forms of work, and we certainly want to do the same thing in this instance if we can't maintain the jobs with an alternative buyer.
And the longer term future, you're right, it's long-term employment, and what we want to see is that continued investment in the skills of the workforce so it's better employment—more jobs and better jobs is the way forward for us, but it also means, when you do have significant shocks like this, you need to understand the human impact and how we support people to cope with the demand that exists in the community. That includes, as I say, the extraordinary demand coming through your office, and it is then to have a vision of how we can do better in the future with and for your community and others right across the country.

Joel James AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. Whilst it is good to hear that you are seeking clarity from UK Windows & Doors about the current situation, and you have a package in place to support workers who have lost their jobs, we have to be aware that, sadly, this is as a reaction to the situation. It is the shock of so many jobs being made redundant at once that has had the real impact, and, with them all primarily being within RCT, it is difficult to see how the local labour market will be able to accommodate them all at once.
This is not the first time that companies collapsing in Wales has surprised the Welsh Government, and I believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the Government should be in a better position to not only understand the needs of businesses, but to also understand the local pressures that large employers like UK Windows & Doors are under. The Government should be the first point of contact when a business is suffering, and not an afterthought when it has collapsed. Likewise, businesses need to engage with the Welsh Government and the help and support it can offer them. Having those relationships would not only mean that business might be able to get that support far earlier, but it also means that they're given the opportunity to directly address the core issues that they're facing.
With this in mind, Minister, what steps are you and the Welsh Government taking to improve the relationships that you have with the business community and large-scale employers in Wales and encourage better engagement from them, and what funding and bespoke business support can you offer them so that more vital jobs are not lost? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I think that was a poorly judged contribution, bearing in mind what's happened, the anxiety that exists within the community and what I've already put on the record about the fact that this is an employer that has long-term relationships with the local authority. It was talking to the local authority this summer about potential expansion plans. It has a sustained relationship with the Welsh Government. It was talking to Welsh Government officials this summer about potential expansion plans. To move from that, within the last week, where the business itself chose not to engage with us, chose actively to avoid contact with us—. This isn’t a matter of the business not being aware of who the Welsh Government is and the support available; it’s a choice made by the business itself. We actually have good relationships with individual businesses and with every membership organisation representing businesses either across Wales or indeed in different sectors. I’m always keen to learn what more we can do to help people, but this instance is just not a case of where a business did not know what to do or who to ask—it’s a choice that the business has made, and I think Joel James maybe ought to reflect on that.

And finally, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Minister, for your statement.

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course, Heledd Fychan has already expressed our solidarity with the workforce; I’d like to join her in doing so, as well as to join Members across the Chamber in condemning the way in which workers have been treated.
Now, the Minister knows that, like him, I take a keen interest in the progress of the co-operative sector here in Wales. Now, the recent Co-operatives UK report for 2023 stated that co-operatives accounted for just 0.6 per cent of total Welsh GDP. I know we both share the ambition of upscaling our activities in this sector, so, if the worst comes to pass, will a worker buy-out be the default position of the Welsh Government? It’s reported that 500 jobs could be lost. A co-operative model supported by Welsh Government could mean 500 jobs saved. It will empower the community and you’ll have Plaid Cymru’s support.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm always interested in opportunities to expand the size of the co-operative economy. It’s why there’s a programme for government commitment that flows from our manifesto to double the size of the number of worker-owned businesses, and we’re on track to do that within this term. The challenge, when a shock like this comes, is whether actually a workers’ buy-out is a realistic option. Now, that’s why we have Compass as a co-operative development agency. It’s also why there are specific funds available through the Development Bank of Wales, but the administrators are in control of the situation and how they seek to gain value, bearing in mind the assets and the potential debts the business has, is not something we’re in control of. But we will provide practical support, and we engaged significant amounts of time and energy in talking to managers at Tillery Valley Foods. The difficulty there was the transparent lack of integrity from the previous business and the information that was shared and the scale of the debts that were there. With this business, if there is an opportunity to look at a different business ownership model then we will want to take it. What I don’t want to do is to say that I can simply announce that it will be a co-op and tell other people to make it so. We have to deal with the people who’ve got real control.
I want to see more employee-owned businesses, I want to see more co-ops. They can be highly successful business models. These are not matters that are a community enterprise and that is it. The scale can be significant, they can be big employers, they can be successful employers, and we will continue to grow the size of the co-op economy. What I can’t tell the Member is that this will be a case where we’ll end up seeing a worker-owned co-op coming out of it. The priority and the focus has to be on as much certainty as we can provide people—if the jobs can be saved, how they can be saved, and, if they can’t, to help people find good-quality alternative work.

Thank you, Minister.

7. The Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Single Transferable Vote) (Wales) Rules 2023

Item 7 today is the Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Single Transferable Vote) (Wales) Rules 2023. I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8364 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Single Transferable Vote) (Wales) Rules 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 12 September 2023.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. Elections are essential to our democracy, and in our programme for government we have committed to reform local government elections to reduce the democratic deficit. Earlier, my colleague the Counsel General outlined a Bill to improve how elections are administered. In this context, I am pleased to bring the Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Single Transferable Vote) (Wales) Rules 2023 before you today, and to hear the views of colleagues in the Chamber.
The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 gave principal councils in Wales the choice between continuing with the first-past-the-post system or adopting the single transferrable vote for their elections. These rules laid before the Senedd add provisions for the conduct of STV elections to the local government election rules. As Members know, we are not imposing either STV or first-past-the-post on local authorities. Our position is that it should be for each local authority to determine its own arrangements.
Local government colleagues now have until November of next year to weigh up the arguments as to whether to change the voting system for 2027. We are giving them the clarity of how an STV system would operate in Wales. This will enable them to weigh up the arguments and engage locally before reaching a decision that must be agreed by two-thirds of their councillors—the same threshold as we have for changing the Senedd's electoral system.
I am grateful to the Electoral Reform Society for their research and their awareness raising about STV. I'm sure that Members will have their own views on the advantages or disadvantages of STV, and I hope that they will see how the rules make the choice more concrete and more clear for local authorities.
We all know that STV works well in Scotland and Northern Ireland already. In developing these rules, we used research that we commissioned and also reflected on the operation of STV in those parts of the UK. We consulted on these rules as draft. Responses were largely supportive, and a summary of these responses is available on the Welsh Government website. We are grateful to respondents for helping to improve the rules, for example, with more accessible language.
As ever, I'd like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their consideration of this legislation. I will be providing a detailed response to their helpful report. As part of the report, the committee identified some minor drafting errors in the English and Welsh text, which are described in points 1, 4 and 6 of the committee's report. These are minor errors that do not change the operation of the regulations. As such, they will be corrected prior to the making of the regulations.
To add further clarity for the operation of these rules, my officials will continue to work closely with the Electoral Commission and other stakeholders to ensure that clear guidance is available and to support councils in implementing the rules where STV is taken forward. I look forward to hearing the views of colleagues.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd and Minister. Thank you very much. We considered these draft rules yesterday, and our report is available from today’s agenda to inform Members in this afternoon’s debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021, as the Minister has outlined already, includes provisions enabling principal councils, if they so decide, to conduct their elections using the single transferable vote system—the STV system—instead of the simple majority system. These rules provide for the conduct of elections where the STV system is used.
So, our report on the draft rules contains six technical points and one merits point, and we raise these matters again today in the debate to be helpful to the Minister and to officials when they bring forward their response to our points. The first of our technical reporting points notes a handful of drafting errors in the draft rules. For example, there are references to 'paragraph' that should instead be references to 'subparagraph', and the like.
Four of our technical reporting points have been raised because we think that there is some further explanation needed. For example, our fifth technical reporting point highlights that new rules 60T and 64X set out the procedure for re-counting votes. These rules largely reflect the existing rules in Schedules 1 and 2 to the 2021 rules. However, those existing rules include additional provision confirming that the rules that apply to a re-count also apply to any further re-counts. We note that the new rules, 60T and 64X, do not include that additional provision.
Our final technical reporting point notes several inconsistencies between the English and Welsh texts of the draft rules. This isn't isolated to this instrument in front of us today; we have noted this on other occasions as well. For example, in the newly inserted rule 64G(3)(a), the English text refers to 'the registration officer', but the Welsh text says 'the returning officer'. Now this is important, to get it right, and to avoid confusion.
Our single merits reporting point recognises that the STV system will be novel to many voters. So, we asked whether the Welsh Government has considered including more information, for example, inside voting compartments in polling stations. So, there could, for example, be an explanation of the consequences of making additional choices, i.e. that votes may be transferred where a candidate is elected and has a surplus of votes.
As the Minister has said, we have not yet received a formal response from the Welsh Government, but we do look forward to receiving it shortly, and I hope these points we're making are helpful, both to the Minister and for the scrutiny of this Senedd. And should a principal authority, indeed, decide to avail itself of these provisions and utilise STV for local elections, it'll be helpful to those authorities and the local electorate too. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Minister, for bringing this forward. We welcome the introduction of these new rules to enable local authorities to conduct their elections according to a single transferrable vote system. This is a long-overdue reform that will, undoubtedly, empower Welsh democracy at a local level.
It's no secret that Plaid Cymru have consistently advocated for the merits of an STV system as a far more progressive and proportional electoral system, compared with the outdated first-past-the-post model. The fact that Belarus—hardly a bastion of democracy and good governance—is the only other European nation that exclusively uses first-past-the-post underscores this inherent unsuitability. The impact of first-past-the-post on voter engagement can be seen in the turnout of 38.7 per cent at the last local elections in Wales. Meanwhile, the propensity for first-past-the-post to engender safe seats is conveyed by the fact that 6 per cent of council seats in Wales, 74 in total, were uncontested in 2022. It's for this reason that we continue to make the case for the extension of STV across all levels of elections in Wales, including those that determine the composition of this place. Given the acute pressures that are being faced by local authorities across Wales as a result of Tory-driven austerity, it would be entirely understandable if many were hesitant to implement these changes in time for 2027.
Minister, what further support and guidance is being provided by Welsh Government to assist local authorities considering a switch to STV in time for the 2027 elections, beyond the rules set out here? If it turns out that no local authorities are able to switch to an STV system in time for the 2027 elections, will the Welsh Government review these rules and consider implementing STV wholesale for future local elections? And, as you've mentioned before, this is already the situation in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Furthermore, has the Welsh Government considered any outreach campaigns to enhance public awareness and knowledge of STV? Global events of recent years have demonstrated the dire consequences of allowing democracy to wither on the vine; it should be the responsibility of us all to ensure that Welsh democracy is nurtured and tended to. I firmly believe that these reforms, as well as the broader constitutional reforms that are being introduced this term, will achieve this. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhys ab Owen AS: My points are very similar to those of Peredur Owen Griffiths. The key concern is that local authorities will not implement these changes and that they'll feel dissuaded from doing so. Firstly, we all know that reform is often resisted, especially if it could mean changing who gets elected. Secondly, they might feel dissuaded because of the increased costs—they say around £6,000 for 100,000 voters. And thirdly, they might say that they're dissuaded because councils are worried about confusion involving different election systems. Peredur has quite rightly highlighted the many issues of first-past-the-post, but if local authorities do not implement STV, we won't be able to gather data on the workability of STV in Wales, and we will have no idea how successful it is in Wales. So, my question is very similar: what will the Welsh Government do to ensure that councils are not merely allowed to, but are encouraged to try this new election system? Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to reply.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to colleagues who have participated in the debate today, and particularly to the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for the very thorough consideration of the legislation. I did confirm a response to the committee earlier on today, so I'm hoping that by the end of today it will have winged its way to the committee. But I'm very grateful for the points that the committee has made.
The merits scrutiny point, I think, is important, and it was a point that was raised by some colleagues in the debate as well, about making sure that there is the right amount of information and the right type of information available to voters. We did give consideration to this, and we had advice from experts that tended to recommend that information on STV for voters should be kept as simple as possible. The research that we commissioned, which I will send to the committee, did inform the drafting of the rules and it specifically recommended that voter education materials should focus on how to fill in ballots and avoid discussion of transfers. So, it is complex, but it is important that the information that we provide is useful and clear to voters.
Allowing the choice of STV for local elections is part of our wider package of electoral reform, of course, including the two recently introduced Bills, but also the work that we're doing in terms of improving diversity in democracy. That's another really important piece of work that I know has cross-party support in the Senedd.
What we're debating today really isn't the merits of STV.I know that Members will have a variety of views across the Chamber, although I know that colleagues in Plaid Cymru have been very clear over a long period about theirsupport for STV, and now this is an opportunity for those colleagues of our Plaid CymruMembers of the Senedd to be considering what's right for them on a local basis. We look forward, genuinely, to seeing what comes forward from local authorities.
I just wanted to reflect briefly on the discussions I've had most recently with the Electoral Reform Society. They've been doing some really important work, having conversations with councils and councillors right across the length and breadth of Wales to understand what the barriers are to STV. I think that some of those were reflected in Rhys ab Owen's contribution, particularly around information, the availability of advice. What I hope that the rules that we are debating today do is provide some clarity around the manual and electronic counting, around the ballot papers, what they should look like, around issues such as re-counts and so on. So, it will give local authorities and councillors now the information that they need to make a very informed choice on the way forward that's best for them on a local basis. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time, which is next. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. No.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Voting Time

There is only one vote this afternoon, and that's on item 7, the local elections rules. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. The Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Single Transferable Vote) (Wales) Rules 2023: For: 36, Against: 14, Abstain: 0Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you all.

The meeting ended at 17:29.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Rhianon Passmore: Will the First Minister provide an update on Welsh Government action to enhance rail services in Islwyn?

Mark Drakeford: As a result of a £70m investment by Welsh Government and Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council I am delighted that from December this year TFW will operate two trains an hour on the line, one to Newport and one to Cardiff.

Mike Hedges: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's policy on developing science and innovation parks?

Mark Drakeford: Our policy encourages investment in assets such as the Institute of Life Sciences, AberInnovation, M-Sparc, the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, where they align with our priorities. They also attract external investment into Wales, developing capacity to innovate, and contribute to their local economies with high-quality jobs and training opportunities.

Rhys ab Owen: When will StatsWales publish more up-to-date projections of households and population, so that Cardiff Council’s local development plan can be brought in line with Welsh Government forecasts?

Mark Drakeford: The next set of local authority population and household projections for Wales are likely to be published in early 2025. They will be made available once the Office for National Statistics has published the next full set of national population projections for Wales.

Ken Skates: How is the Welsh Government improving pay and conditions for public sector workers?

Mark Drakeford: Across the public sector, we work in social partnership with devolved public service employers and trade unions to improve working conditions and public service delivery.